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Interfaith Dialogue
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Rational
 
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 03 February 2013 at 4:52am
Originally posted by Webber

subhanaho wa ta'ala <---- what does this mean?

Glorified and Exalted be He سبحانه و تعالى

In the Quran
, Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) uses this phrase many times in response to those that associate deities with Him (azza wa jall).

http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87%20%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%89

What's amazing is that
in the Holy Quran, the word "Glorified" is mentioned 14 times and the word "Exalted" is mentioned 14 times also! What are the chances? There are many other examples like this, the Quran is full of Allah's magnificence. Subhana Allah!

14 times "Glorified"
http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87&chapter=&translator=1&search=1&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

14 times
"Exalted"
http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%89&chapter=&translator=1&search=1&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

But why 14? Smile Allah knows best.


Edited by Rational - 03 February 2013 at 6:51am
الله
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2013 at 7:34am
Originally posted by Caringheart


I do not dismiss the qu'ran without first reading it for myself.But then I am truly seeking Truth and want to know Truth.   I am not wishing to hide from any part of it.Salaam,CH




Greetings Caringheart,

Before you dismiss the Quran I want to say this ...

You are not reading the Quran, you are only reading a translation of the verses.
Even arabic speakers cannot know the quran without the background of revelation - so one cannot understand it with mere translation.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2013 at 8:33am
Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

Originally posted by TG12345

I understand what you are saying. Do you call Allah your "father"? Did Muhammad do this? Is God called "the Father" in your mosque?

Originally posted by Rational

  No we don't. God is not a father or a mother or a grandfather whether in a literal or in a symbolic sense. He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity. The term "father" is not included in the 99 attributes of Allah (azza wa jall) for a reason. He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) didn't want that to be part of the final message because it leads to confusion. Just like how you are confused now. Allah has no children, sons or daughters. Jesus was not the son of Allah. You are not a child or a son of Allah.

But just earlier, you wrote:

It's common for people to call their seniors "father" out of respect. When I read about Jesus saying "father", i see it as him saying this out of respect and not the literal meaning.

If the term "Father" that Jesus used meant a sign of respect and nothing more, why doesn't Islam call God "Father"? Do you not respect Him?

Would it be wrong of me to say that Allah is the Father of Muhammad? When you pray, why don't you say "Allah, my Father". After all, it's only out of respect according to you that Jesus called Him that.

Originally posted by Rational

   If Jesus was the son of Allah and we are Allah's children, then surley that would mean that you, me and Jesus are brothers and are all Son's of God?

Actually, Jesus did say that those who believe in Him and follow Him are the children of God.

Jesus is the Son of Allah, as well as Allah. Allah exists as three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by TG12345

Not using these exact words. He has however said things about Himself that would be only true of God.

Originally posted by Rational

   "I and the Father are one"
"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father"

Again, you're basing your claim on verses that do not say what you are claiming. Those verses do not state what you are claiming. You're giving them an interpretation that suits your personal views, because those verses are vague, and thier meaning can be interchanged. They can be given an interpretation that refutes your claim, which actually makes alot more sense. Watch this video to find out. It's funny because he even shows that your interpretation implies that you have 14 persons in your god, not 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY

I watched his video, and it is interesting to say the least.

Zakir Naik claims that every messenger was "the way the truth and the life". What is interesting is that he does not cite any 'messenger' other than Jesus saying that. If the same applied to Muhammad and Moses, where did they say such a thing? Where did Muhammad say "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me"?
Also, according to Naik, every prophet was "the way the truth and the life to Almighty God". Yet Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but through Him.

Muhammad did not call Allah the Father.

He said if you follow the prophets, you are following indirectly the teachings of God. Jesus did not say that those who follow Him "indirectly" follow God.

He quotes John 10:22-30 and sums it up by saying "in purpose, Jesus said I and my Father are one". Jesus did not say that He and the Father are one "in purpose". That is something Mr Naik inserted into the text.

He gives a great example, although I think unwittingly. He said "When I mean I and my Father are one, it means I am a doctor, he is a doctor, in profession, we are both medical doctors".

That's actually true. The Father is God and Jesus is God. So by saying I and my Father are one, Jesus is saying here that He is God!

He is correct in saying that one does not mean "one as a person". Jesus and the Father are not one as person, they are one God. God exists as three persons- the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

He 'quotes' John 17:21 saying "My Father is in you, you in me, we all are one".

This is what the verse actually says:

John 17:20,21

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Jesus did not say that "we all are one", He prayed that the disciples may be in Him and the Father (in us).

According to Naik, verse 23 states "I am in you, we are one"

This is what the actual verse says

John 17:23

23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

He claimed that to believe "I and the Father are one" means they are actually one means that one needs to change the Trinity into a concept that means 14 gods. He says that Jesus and the Father and the disciples were one in purpose, and if you don't believe that you need to believe they are all one God.

Here are the verses Naik was quoting, I will use the to show his misunderstanding.

John 17:21-26


20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me.
26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

Jesus did not say that He, the Father and the disciples "we all are one". No, He prayed that the disciples may be one just as the Father is in Him and He is in the Father

He did not say He wants "all of us to be one", no He made a clear distinction. He wanted the disciples to be one as He and the Father are. He then wanted them to be in us.

Let's continue examining verse 23.

Jesus prayed that the disciples "are one" just as He and the Father are one.  He asked that they (not "we") may become perfectly one.

Nowhere did Jesus say that the disciples, Him and the Father "are one". He said He prayed for the disciples to be in Him and the Father and that they will be in them, but He never said that the fourteen of them should be one. He made it very clear that there is a distinction between how He and the Father are one, and how the disciples are to be one.

Dr Naik mentions John 10:31-36, and said that Jesus merely meant that He and God are one in purpose. Jesus never said He and the Father are one "in purpose". He did not say such a thing anywhere in the Bible.

He conveniently forgot to quote verse 37... in which Jesus said:

36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 

According to Islam, He isn't the Son of God.

Zakir Naik is a gifted orator, but a loud voice doesn't necessarily mean you are right.

He misquoted at least 2 passages and left out some important things that they say. Jesus never said that He and the Father are one "in purpose". He also did not say that He, the Father and the disciples "all are one". Jesus made a distinction between the disciples being one and He and the Father being one... something Mr. Zakir Naik either failed to notice or chose to ignore.

Again, in regards to the "those who have seen me have seen the Father" quote, you claim Muhammad did not say that those who have seen Him have seen Allah, because Muhammad was only a messenger, and not divine.

If what Jesus said merely meant that He and God are alike in purpose, there should be no problem in saying that those who have seen Muhammad have seen Allah. Next time someone asks you what Allah looks like, tell him to read up on what Muhammad looked like, because those who have seen Muhammad have seen God!


Originally posted by Rational

   Indeed TG you've been brainwashed. Otherwise you wouldn't believe in a "Living Dead" god. 

I believe in a God who is alive, and who at one point in history was both alive and dead.

You are the one who is brainwashed into following a religion that teaches you that people have been decreasing in height up to the time of Muhammad; that before Muhammad all prophets have been sent to their people only, despite the fact that your own book claims he was sent to Pharaoh before he was sent to the people of Israel; that teaches Christians and Jews hid the traits of Muhammad in the Gospel and Torah yet at the same time these traits are there and you need to look in these books to find him; that God told all of humanity that milk is palatable to all who drink it despite the fact there are deadly milk allergies... and many more things. Smile

Originally posted by TG12345

Do you believe Allah is better than Satan?

Originally posted by Rational

   Obviously I do. Do you?

As do I. There are however some non-Muslims who believe Allah (as He is portrayed in the Quran) is Satan.

Show a verse from  the Quran to prove them wrong. Remember, the verse must clearly say "Allah is better than Satan" or "We/I/the Lord of the Worlds am better than Iblis".
 
Originally posted by TG12345

There are Muslims who use the Quran to refute the belief held by most other Muslims that the hadiths are Muhammad's sayings and that one needs to follow them.

Originally posted by Rational

   Let's stick to the Quran and the Bible.

Why is that? Are the hadiths not part of your faith?

Are you suggesting "we sweep them under the carpet, where they belong" like you accused me of wanting to do with the Bible passages that do not say what you think they say?
 
Originally posted by Rational

   Muslims don't dispute anything in the Quran as the Christians dispute over matters in the Bible. Christians are disputing on who is God in the Bible. Fact.

We do not dispute what is in the Bible. There are some disagreements over what the Bible means. Most Christians believe Jesus is God. There is a minority who does not because they misinterpret what it teaches.

You made an amazing claim. Muslims don't dispute anything in the Quran as Christians dispute over matters in the Bible.

Really?


The Muslims on the site below believe that the Quran confirms that Jesus was crucified, that the Bible we have in our hands today is the Injil and Torah, and that Christians and Jews did not change their Scriptures.

http://unchangingword.com/

The Muslims on this site believe the Quran teaches that hell is not eternal

http://www.islamrevolution.org/ishelleternal.htm

According to this Muslim, the Quran teaches that to follow the hadiths is a great sin.

http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/qhi/qhi.html

I guess since Muslims do not dispute over the Quran as we Christians do, that must mean that you also believe that according to the Quran:

1) Jesus was crucified
2) The Bible is the unchanged and uncorrupted Injil and Torah
3) Hell is not eternal
4) It is a grave sin to follow or take any religious instruction from the hadith.

After all, unlike Christians, Muslims do not dispute over what is in the Quran, right? Wink


Originally posted by TG12345

I do not ignore anything in the Bible. I have addressed those passages you pasted on here and have shown you they do not state that Jesus is not God.

 
Originally posted by Rational

   Then please refute what the presenter claimed in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY

Done already. See above.

Mr. Naik would do himself a big favour if he did not misquote passages and ignore those that prove him wrong.

Originally posted by TG12345

So as long as you worship only God, is it ok to believe believe He isn't better than Satan?

Originally posted by Rational

   What do you think?

I asked you first.

Again:

Rational: God tells muslims that He is God and we should worship Him and only Him. This is the main part of the message. He then leaves the rest to us. If we obey, then on that day we're ok. If we disobey, then on that day we're not ok, because God told us the message. But for you, you're excused because Jesus never told you he is God and you should worship him. So there is no requirement in worshiping him.

TG12345: So as long as you worship only God, is it ok to believe believe He isn't better than Satan?


Please answer the question. I answer yours.
 
Originally posted by TG12345

That's nice, but I don't associate anyone with God. God is God.

Originally posted by Rational

   TG, that's not what you've been saying before. For you, God is not God. For you, God is (God the father + God the son + God the holy spirit).

As God the Father and God the Son is God and God the Holy Spirit is one God, when I say God is God, that is exactly what I mean.

Originally posted by Rational

    You have THREE images in your mind. An image of an old and wise looking father sitting on a throne, an image of a young handsome looking son, and an image of a spirit. You'll never be able to superimpose them into one image, no matter how hard you try. You will always have three pictures in your head. God is 3 persons remember?

When did I claim that when I think of God the Father I have an image of "a wise looking father sitting on a throne" or that when I think of Jesus I have an image of "a young handsome looking son" or that I have an image of the Holy Spirit.

Please don't assume you know what is in my mind.

I have no idea what God looks like. I don't know how He looks like as the Father, I have no idea how He looks like as Jesus, I have no idea how He looks like as the Holy Spirit.

I never claimed I did.
 

Originally posted by Rational

   TG is one person,
Abu Loren is one person,
Caringheart is one person, 
Rational is one person,

God is three persons.

Not one, two, four, five, or 10,000. THREE PERSONS!

Don't forget that.

Yes. God is not a human being, and it is silly to expect He looks like us.

He does exist as three persons. This does not mean there are three Gods.
 
Originally posted by Rational

   Ofcourse you have more than one god. For some reason you believe it's one god made up of three implying you worship only one. You said that God the father allowed God the son to die. That's two gods TG! Did you see that?

That would mean I believe in two Gods if I believed the Father and the Son are two separate Gods. However, I believe they are one God.

Originally posted by Rational

    Problem is you're stubborn because you choose to ignore reality.

Problem is you don't understand what I believe, and try to fit it into your narrow view of God.

Originally posted by Rational

    You're acting like a zombie because you follow concepts that don't make sense.

You are getting frustrated and calling me a "zombie" because the Quran not only falsely portrays God, but you also have a skewed view of how Christians see Him.

Originally posted by Rational

   You struggle to explain things but you don't care you just carry on walking. You make claims like "God was alive and dead at the same time" and you're proud of it.

I am proud not of myself, but of God. It is amazing that He loved us so much He was willing to suffer for us. It is also amazing He was able to be alive and dead at the same time.


Originally posted by Rational

    It's much more plausible to claim that Christians are alive and dead at the same time. Walking zombies. Are you offended? You shouldn't be because you made this claim about God.

Not offended, just amused by your misunderstanding of my faith. It is interesting how Christians on this forum are sometimes attacked for making claims about Islam without reading the Quran in full and misunderstanding what you believe, yet often Muslims do the same thing.

Calling God "a zombie" because He was alive and dead at the same time according to the Bible, is like calling Him "a conniving neo-con" because the Quran claims He is "the best planner".

Sure you can say that. It points only to how much you misunderstand Him.

Originally posted by Rational

   By the way, what do you call God when you pray? father, Jesus or holy spirit?

I usually say "God", since the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are one God.

Sometimes I say "Father", especially when I say the Lord's prayer. Sometimes I ask things in "Jesus' Name". Sometimes I address God as Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Usually I say God, however, because He is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

BTW what do you call God when you pray?Do you pray to Allah the Almighty? Allah the All-Merciful? The Lord of the Worlds? Which one of them do you call on?
Originally posted by Rational

  
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Wa anta.

Allahma3k. Blessed be His Name.


Edited by TG12345 - 04 February 2013 at 8:52am
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2013 at 9:11am
Originally posted by truthnowcome

Ok, No one responde to me well then I will deal with the matter as a whole....

Assalamo alaik brother,

That was very informative and illustrates how Jesus(as) cannot be God.

Jazak Allahu kairan

الله
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2013 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Nausheen


Greetings Caringheart,

Before you dismiss the Quran I want to say this ...

You are not reading the Quran, you are only reading a translation of the verses.
Even arabic speakers cannot know the quran without the background of revelation - so one cannot understand it with mere translation.


Greetings Nausheen,

I appreciate your words but in my view,
Even this is myth.
Why would God give us His Word in a form that no one could understand?  How could this be the word for the whole world when we are constantly told that no one in the world can understand its meaning?
This myth only adds to my reasons for dismissing the authenticity of the qur'an as Word of God.
Not saying this to offend, just stating the facts the way I see them.
If I am to accept the qu'ran I must be able to read and understand its message, otherwise I am only following the words of man and what man tells me it means.

Salaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2013 at 2:26pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

You are not reading the Quran, you are only reading a translation of the verses.
Even arabic speakers cannot know the quran without the background of revelation - so one cannot understand it with mere translation.
Legal documents often assume the reader is qualified in law. But when the intended audience is 'the public' law-makers usually try their best to use plain language. It makes things so much simpler.

By choosing words that are translation-proof, perhaps a higher purpose is being served. I'm not sure what, but maybe it has something to do with the idea of Necessary Evil - that without the undeserved suffering of children (eg through religious conflict and war) there can be no good in the world.

I think I'm starting to get the hang of it now.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2013 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Nausheen

Abu Loren,
Assalamualaikum wa rahamtullah wa barkatuhu,

I just posted a vedio in the Forum Prophet-Muhammad 'The Strength of Beauty and the beauty of strength'. It is 31+minutes long. Please take a look and humor me.

Jazak Allahu khair.
 
A frog and a scorpion stood on a river bank and the scorpion said to the frog "put me on your back and carry me across to the other side of the river" the frog replied "no, you will only sting me when we are in the middle" in which the scorpion pleaded " I will not I promise".
So the frog put the scorpion on his back and started to cross the river, hwoever when they reached the middle of the river the scorpion stung the frog. The frog said "what have you done? Now we will both drown you f--l". The scorpion replied "I can't help it, it's in my nature".
 
I'm trying ringo, really trying hard to emulate the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) but I don't think I will even come close to within a mile of him.
 
The Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) said that the greatest Jihad is the struggle within one self. Insha'Allah with prayer and dua'a I am hoping to get close to that.


So who is the scorpion and who is the frog?
Sorry for being so dumb.

Asking because a muslim should not be like that scorpion because islam teaches one to go back on 'fitra' and human 'fitra' is different from scorpions :)

A muslim can also not be a frog. We are taught to be careful with those who we are sure of receiving harm from.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2013 at 1:45am
Originally posted by Nausheen



So who is the scorpion and who is the frog?
Sorry for being so dumb.

Asking because a muslim should not be like that scorpion because islam teaches one to go back on 'fitra' and human 'fitra' is different from scorpions :)

A muslim can also not be a frog. We are taught to be careful with those who we are sure of receiving harm from.

 
Salaam
 
Being brought up in London, England I was far away from the goodness of Islam as is the West is from the East. The Brits have lost the importance of teaching children manners and basis etiquette. They are basically left to fend for themselves and learn as they go. My parents never taught me anything, what little goodness I possess I got it by knowing what is wrong and what is right.
 
I think we are different people at the differing ends of the spectrum. I can imagine you being taught Islmic manners in how to behave and how to treat people from a very early age. Contrast that with the growing up in a godless country like England. To make things worse, England was also a very racist country (still is to an extent) and one had to be tough to survive. Foul language had to be used with every other word. If you ddidn't then you are thought of as being abnormal.
 
Like I said I'm trying to shed my formal skin as I know now that my nature is not right according to the teaching of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). I know the following hadith very well and I do strive against myself but sometimes satan gets the better of me.
 
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (sallallahu%20alaihi%20wa%20sallam) said: The most perfect believer in respect of faith is he who is best of them in manners.

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