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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL Post Reply Post New Topic
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

He simultaneously died and stayed alive at the same time. This is something us human beings are incapable of doing, much less beginning to understand. Fortunately, God is not one of us.

God was alive and dead at the same time?
 
This is getting better and better. I think this Christian is rounded up to a corner and think things along as he goes.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 3:03pm
Greetings Rational,
"Anyone that says not my will but God's will, is a muslim. A muslim means the person who submits the will to almighty God. Jesus (pbuh) was a muslim, a mighty prophet of God."
If these words are true then there are plenty who qualify as 'muslim', even Jews(like Jesus).  There are many who are living their lives submitted to the one God.  I follow Jesus and am submitted to God.  "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done..."  This is the prayer that I pray... the one Jesus taught us to pray.

You keep trying to understand and explain God with the mind of a human, instead of realizing and accepting that God is a great mystery.  Only to one who has the Holy Spirit, is the mystery clear and understood.  Only when you can stop putting God in the box of the limited human mind.

Salaam and may God bring you blessings,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by Rational

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Peace in Christ.

Originally posted by TG12345

Yes. It is also clear and explicit that Jesus made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father although(?) He was in the form of God.

Originally posted by Rational

In other words, Jesus (alaihi al-salam) "volunteered" (offered) to be inferior to the father. Volunteering implies two parties, the one offering and the one receiving. But because you have One God, the only sensible deduction would be that God "volunteered" to Himself.

It's interesting to see the word "although" in your response. In other words, even though Jesus is God, He offered to be inferior to Himself. Otherwise you wouldn't have One God.

Yes, you are correct. One God exists as three persons. The Son was volunarily making Himself inferior to the Father. God was voluntarily making Himself inferior to God.

Originally posted by Rational

Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "I can of mine own self do nothing". You said Jesus was in the form of God, then why would God say he can do nothing?

God the Son while He was on earth was not able to act without God the Father.

Originally posted by Rational

Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father"
Anyone that says not my will but God's will, is a muslim. A muslim means the person who submits the will to almighty God. Jesus (pbuh) was a muslim, a mighty prophet of God.

Do Muslims believe Jesus called God "Father"? Do you call Allah your "Father"? Was Jesus His Son? Are you one of His sons?

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus often referred to the Father as His God.

Originally posted by Rational

You say you have One God. Just to clarify, Is He referring to Himself as His God?

Yes. He is referring to the Father, who along with Him and the Holy Spirit is one God.

Originally posted by TG12345

He was calling to the Father.

Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?".
Does this sound like a volunteer? [/Quote]
Yes. He knew the Father would forsake Him and allow Him to die.

Originally posted by TG12345

I pray every night that God leads Muslims to the truth. I also pray that if I am mistaken about Him, He show me.

Originally posted by Rational

Alhamdo lellah (Praise be to God)

Blessed be His Name.

Originally posted by TG12345

Then why are you referring to it to claim Jesus did not say He is God?

Originally posted by Rational

Because most Christians insist that Jesus is God and to be worshiped despite the fact that the bible doesn't say it.

It does, and you yourself have admitted this later in your response. I will show you where.

Originally posted by TG12345

You are right, that is a bad example.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe God is better than Satan?

If so, please show me a verse that states "Allah is better than Satan".

Originally posted by Rational

Since you insist on going down this route let's see where it will lead us.

We've established that the previous question you had asked is not equivalent to what I am asking you. Now you've asked another question. Let's explore if this question is equivalent to mine.

Claim A. Jesus is God and should be worshiped

Evidence to refute this claim from both the Quran and the Bible (Mark 10:18, John 17:3, John 20:17, John 14:28, John 10:29, John 5:30, Revelation 3:12, Matthew 27:46, Matthew 12:28, luke 11:20, Matthew 6:9-13, Matthew 26:39, John 7:16, John 14:24, John 12:49, John 4:34, John 6:38, Luke 22:42, John 8:42, Mark 13:32, Matthew 24:36, John 7:16)

None of these passages refute that Jesus is God. The Quran refutes this truth. The Bible does not.

Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus say "I am not God" or "do not worship me". Nowhere in the Bible is it written "Jesus is not God" or "Jesus is not to be worshiped".

You demanded me to show you a passage from the Bible where Jesus said "I am God, worship me". I have shown you passages where He said things that He would only say if He claimed to be God... and you concurred on this, as I will show later on.

If you challenged me to show you a passage where Jesus said "I am God, worship me", I challenge you to show me a passage where Jesus said "I am not God, do not worship me". You are unable to show such a passage.

Originally posted by Rational

Claim B.
Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) is better than satan

No evidence to refute this claim

There is also no evidence in the Bible tor refute the claim that Jesus is God.

Originally posted by Rational

Conclusion:

'A' is questionable, disputable.

Questionable and disputable according to you and others who misunderstand God's word, but very clear to those of us who know and recognize who Jesus is.

Originally posted by Rational

'B' is unquestionable, indisputable.

Then show me a passage from the Quran where it says "God is better than Satan" or Allah said "I am better than Satan", as you demanded I show you a passage from the Bible where Jesus said "I am God, worship me".

Originally posted by Rational

'A' needs clarification, 'B' doesn't.

Both are extremely clear from reading and understanding the Bible and Quran respectively.

Originally posted by Rational

If you want an equivalent question, you could ask:

Q:
Does Allah say "I am God" or "Worship me"?

1. "O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous" (2:21)

2. "Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One, (1) Allah, the Eternal Refuge. (2) He neither begets nor is born, (3) Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (4)

3. "Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path." (3:51)

4. "Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him" (4:36)

5. "Say, [O Muhammad], "Do you argue with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere [in deed and intention] to Him." (139)

6. "They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers." (5:72)

7. "I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (5:117)

8. "That is Allah, your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things." (6:102)

9. "Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne." (7:54)

10.
"
We had certainly sent Noah to his people, and he said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. Indeed, I fear for you the punishment of a tremendous Day." (7:59)

11. "And to the 'Aad [We sent] their brother Hud. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. Then will you not fear Him?" (7:65)

12. "And to the Thamud [We sent] their brother Salih. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah [sent] to you as a sign. So leave her to eat within Allah 's land and do not touch her with harm, lest there seize you a painful punishment." (7:73)

13. "And to [the people of] Madyan [We sent] their brother Shu'ayb. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. So fulfill the measure and weight and do not deprive people of their due and cause not corruption upon the earth after its reformation. That is better for you, if you should be believers." (7:85)

14. "And to 'Aad [We sent] their brother Hud. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. You are not but inventors [of falsehood]." (11:50)

15. "And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers." (16:36)

16. "O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and worship your Lord and do good - that you may succeed." (22:77)

17. "And We had certainly sent Noah to his people, and he said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him; then will you not fear Him?" (23:23)

18. "And We sent among them a messenger from themselves, [saying], "Worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him; then will you not fear Him?" (23:32)

19. "And We had certainly sent to Thamud their brother Salih, [saying], "Worship Allah," and at once they were two parties conflicting." (27:45)

20. "And [We sent] Abraham, when he said to his people, "Worship Allah and fear Him. That is best for you, if you should know." (29:16)

21. "And to Madyan [We sent] their brother Shu'ayb, and he said, "O my people, worship Allah and expect the Last Day and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption." (29:36)

22. "So prostrate to Allah and worship [Him]." (53:62)

23. "Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (2:133)

24. "[Such believers are] the repentant, the worshippers, the praisers [of Allah], the travelers [for His cause], those who bow and prostrate [in prayer], those who enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong, and those who observe the limits [set by] Allah. And give good tidings to the believers." (9:112)

25. "Say, "Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things?" (6:164)

26. "Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, I have been commanded to worship Allah, [being] sincere to Him in religion." (39:11)

27. "Rather, worship [only] Allah and be among the grateful." (39:66)

28. "Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance." (14)

And so on...


That's not what I asked you to show me. I asked you to show me a passage from the Quran where God says He is better than Satan, or one that says God is better than Satan.

Originally posted by Rational

That's how Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) makes Himself known. Allah would never chose to allow people to come to that conclusion themselves (as you explained for Jesus), because the people would excuse themselves on that day and say "You never told us, you left it for us to come to that conclusion, so don't blame us for not believing". Instead, Allah is clear in the Quran, and on that day we won't have that excuse because He was explicit in identifying Himself. The Holy Quran is a miracle from God, a blessing and a mercy for His creation, if only most of us would know.

As there is no passage in the Quran that says "Allah is better than Satan" or where God says "I am better than Satan", you also need to come to that conclusion yourself by reading and understanding your Scripture.

Using your logic, that God would never choose to let people come to a conclusion about Him themselves and there is no ayah that states He is better than Satan, then are you saying people will be allowed to excuse themselves on the Day of Judgement by saying they didn't know He is better than Iblis?

Originally posted by Rational

"
Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants." (17:88)

$5000 Reward If Jesus said - I am God Worship Me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZmd4D9R3d0


I watched this clip already, and as I will show you, He did indeed say He is God.

Originally posted by TG12345

Did Muhammad claim he shared glory with God before the world existed? Did he claim he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell? Did he claim that those who have seen him have seen God, and that he and God are one?


Originally posted by Rational

No Mohammad (pbuh) didn't say any of this because he is a messenger and not God. I didn't claim he said any of this.

If the bible states that Jesus said he will "judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell", then I wouldn't believe those words to be his.

You said that Muhammad did not say he shared glory with God before the world existed, that he did not claim he will judge the nations, that those who have seen him have seen God and that he and God are one, because, in your words, he is a messenger and not God.

If he was God, he surely would have said he will judge the world. He surely would have said that those who have seen him have seen Allah, and that he and Allah are one.

Yet he did not, because these are things only God would say.

These are things that Jesus said in the Gospels.

You said that the Bible does not say Jesus is God:

"Because most Christians insist that Jesus is God and to be worshiped despite the fact that the bible doesn't say it. "

However, at the same time, you acknowledge that the reason that Muhammad in the Quran and hadiths did not say the things that Jesus said in the Bible was because he is not God.

You have just admitted that the Bible says that Jesus is God, because He said things that a messenger would not say since a messenger is not God.

Originally posted by TG12345

Are there 2 Gods or does God have MPD? Or is this the kind of language you believed He used to express Himself?

Originally posted by Rational

Different type of plural, a royal "we". نحن للتعظيم

This is a type of plural to illustrate greatness.

Qur'an uses 'WE' for Allah (Two types of plural)
http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=492%3Aquran-uses-we-for-allah&catid=72%3Amcq-who-have-some-knowledge-about-islam&Itemid=199

Why Does Quran Say "We & He"?
http://www.godallah.com/we_and_he.php

معنى استخدام الضمير "نحن" في القرآن
http://islamqa.info/ar/ref/606


Yet a misunderstanding of the royal "We" that God uses in the Quran could lead one to mistakenly believe that Muslims believe there are two Gods. Similarly, a misunderstanding of the nature of God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that the Bible teaches could lead someone to mistakenly believe that God has MPD or that Christians believe in more than one God.
 
Originally posted by TG12345

If God chose not to guide people from the beginning, does this mean it is His will that people would wander off His path?

Originally posted by Rational

It might be so, Allah knows best. We are all born with the same Fitrah from Allah. He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) gave us everything, and free choice to do what we want and an intellect to decide with. He gave us prophets, signs, warnings, lessons, examples etc. Indeed we cannot count his infinite favours and blessings. But it's undeniable that some will believe whilest others won't. Why? Allah knows best. Whatever is His will, I submit to it.

Sp in other words, it is God's will that some people go to hell.

Originally posted by TG12345

Why was God according to your faith incapable of sending just one messenger and getting His message out the first time?

Originally posted by Rational

He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) is capable of anything. If any muslim tells you otherwise then they are wrong.

Why did it take Him 124,000 attempts before He was able to send a mseenger whose message and holy book has not been forgotten or tampered with?

Originally posted by TG12345

Why did He not preserve all of the books before the Quran?

Originally posted by Rational

This is a good question. And maybe one of the muslim brothers or sisters can jump in on this. What I can say is this, we know and believe that the divine message from Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) was sent to us incrementally, bit by bit, through various prophets, over time, to different people. The message was constantly corrupted and people would repeatedly deviate from the true message sent to them. We know many of these occurrences and the prophets that had to endure them. Some prophets had scriptures and some didn't. But as we know it was a common trend for the message to get corrupted throughout history. And through those events of deviation and corruption, the next message can take that lesson and teach it to the next generation. In other words, those events in history serve as a warning, a lesson and example to learn from. This is the wisdom behind it in my opinion. So now we reach to the final prophet and his message from Allah. Why is God preserving this final message? Because if it was not preserved, it would have the same fate as all the other messages throughout history, it would eventually get corrupted and people would once again deviate, and that would mean complete loss of hope for us until the end of time. The last message had to be preserved by Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala). And Allah knows best.

Why not preserve the first message to begin with, and not allow it to be changed?

And why would He contradict Himself by claiming that the traits of his final prophet were "hidden" by Christians and Jews as they corrupted the Injil and Torah and then claim they can be found in these very same books???


Nice talking with you. You are in my prayers. Looking forward to reading your response. Again, please accept my apologies for present and future delays in responses.

Allah Akhbar. Blessed be His Name.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

God both died as the Son and stayed alive as the Father and Holy Spirit.

But did the One God die?


He simultaneously died and stayed alive at the same time. This is something us human beings are incapable of doing, much less beginning to understand. Fortunately, God is not one of us.

God was alive and dead at the same time?


Na'am.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 4:41pm
" In inviting people to goodness and forbidding from the wrong, Muslims will need to join hands with other believers who share a great deal of these values about good and bad and about right and wrong. The conflicts that we witness today are not conflicts between religions, they are conflicts of irreligion. Therefore, those who believe in God and know the right from the wrong - Jews, Christians and Muslims, especially - can join together to build a not a perfect, but an incomparably better world than we live in today: a society of neighbors who are just and fair to each other."
Dr. Shahid Athar , Millennium - An Islamic Perspective


Who is my neighbor?
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.



Edited by Caringheart - 31 January 2013 at 9:25am
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 6:49pm
I submit that man cannot begin to comprehend God, that is why he created Jesus, so we could relate to God in human form.  Man cannot comprehend that which he cannot see very well- we are trapped in a physical world.  This is why the Jews and others worsipped idols.  Jews wanted a king.  Jews wanted God to come and save them, as a hero.  But God did not do that.  However some get a taste of God with a "near death experience".  They report immense love, white light, etc.  This is why Jesus was about love.  Muhammed was a man for force, repression, worldly pleasures.  Not a "final prophet"- this is impossible.  Many have the gift of prophesy.  I could say that I am the final prophet but that does not make it true.  Any time somebody tells you to not verify what they say and just believe it, is suspect.  THis is like a used car salesman.   The Quran is no contest compared to the Bible.  IMO the Quran is clearly a "made up" holy book, to create a religion to control the people.  Sorry to offend Muslims but your arguments are feeble.
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 7:14pm
I think God got it right with Jesus.  Study the new testament and you will see for yourself. 
The Quran evolved over many years.  Many people had inputs.  Muhammed said many things and there was a lot of confusion and conflicts as to this.  There were over 50 versions at one time. There are still 4 today.  Some were forced to be quiet and not contradict the "official" versions.  There is no way that the Quran today was not modified.  See the book The Quran Dilemma.  It is well documented.  Those of you who blindly say the Quran has never been modified are incorrect.  And Muhammed did not write it - he said many things, but his actions do not portray a holy prophet.  He contradicts Jesus.  They cannot both be right.  Jesus came first and makes much more sense.  The Quran makes little sense and is very poorly written and disjointed.  The only reason so many people believe it is because they are threatened with death if they do not, and are brainwashed as children.  If they were freely allowed to study the bible, they would most likely be Christians.  Christians do not threaten to kill you if you don't become a Christian, and do not say that God will send torture if you don't become one, yet say that God is loving.  A loving God is loving to everyone and does not torture them, burn them, etc.   God will give MUSLIMS a chance to know Jesus too.  This is why I am here.  I am a messenger too, just like you say Muhammed was.  I tell you from God that you do not kill people because they do not believe your Quran.  It is every way as wrong as you say the Bible is.  Satan used the same tactics as Muslims with his Pharasees- legalists.  Satan tested Jesus exactly as Muslims do.   Wish Jesus could answer you but he answers the Pharisees.  See that in the bible.  The book of John is to help you believe in Jesus.  Also Jesus fulfilled old testament prophesies.  Jesus is even coded into the great pyramid of Giza, believe it or not. His lifespen, birthdate, and the Jews as well.  Quite amazing actually.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Empiricist

I submit that man cannot begin to comprehend God, that is why he created Jesus, so we could relate to God in human form.  Man cannot comprehend that which he cannot see very well- we are trapped in a physical world.  This is why the Jews and others worsipped idols.  Jews wanted a king.  Jews wanted God to come and save them, as a hero.  But God did not do that.  However some get a taste of God with a "near death experience".  They report immense love, white light, etc.  This is why Jesus was about love.  Muhammed was a man for force, repression, worldly pleasures.  Not a "final prophet"- this is impossible.  Many have the gift of prophesy.  I could say that I am the final prophet but that does not make it true.  Any time somebody tells you to not verify what they say and just believe it, is suspect.  THis is like a used car salesman.   The Quran is no contest compared to the Bible.  IMO the Quran is clearly a "made up" holy book, to create a religion to control the people.  Sorry to offend Muslims but your arguments are feeble.


I believe that the Quran is not God's word and Islam is not His religion.

But your claim that Muhammad was "a man for force, repression, worldly pleasures" is plain wrong. He spared the lives of many of his enemies, even if he killed others. When he and his family were going hungry, they still helped people who were more poor than they were. He outlawed the killing of infant baby girls. Because of his conviction, he allowed himself to be subjected to persecution and alienation in Mecca when he could have became a prosperous member of his tribe.

How much do you know about Islam? Have you read the Quran and hadiths?

If you did, you wouldn't be making such claims about Muhammad.

Instead of telling Muslims that their arguments are "feeble", I suggest you tell them where and why you disagree with what they believe. Be a witness to the Gospel to them and yes, when there are falsehoods confront them but make sure you know what you are talking about first.

In Christ.

TG12345
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