True enough. I just thought one of the Muslims here would correct him on that point. Both Muslim and non-Muslim posters have jumped into conversations on this forum that did not involve them. It's what happens on a forum.

Thanks for leaving it for me, though.


Edited by TG12345 - 28 January 2013 at 6:04pm

Rational, I am so used to Facebook and when I see this words from you, I was looking for the Like Button.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته


In other words, Jesus (alaihi al-salam) "volunteered" (offered) to be inferior to the father. Volunteering implies two parties, the one offering and the one receiving. But because you have One God, the only sensible deduction would be that God "volunteered" to Himself.

It's interesting to see the word "although" in your response. In other words, even though Jesus is God, He offered to be inferior to Himself. Otherwise you wouldn't have One God.

Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "I can of mine own self do nothing". You said Jesus was in the form of God, then why would God say he can do nothing?

Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father"
Anyone that says not my will but God's will, is a muslim. A muslim means the person who submits the will to almighty God. Jesus (pbuh) was a muslim, a mighty prophet of God.


You say you have One God. Just to clarify, Is He referring to Himself as His God?


Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?".
Does this sound like a volunteer?


Alhamdo lellah (Praise be to God)


Because most Christians insist that Jesus is God and to be worshiped despite the fact that the bible doesn't say it.


Since you insist on going down this route let's see where it will lead us.

We've established that the previous question you had asked is not equivalent to what I am asking you. Now you've asked another question. Let's explore if this question is equivalent to mine.

Claim A. Jesus is God and should be worshiped

Evidence to refute this claim from both the Quran and the Bible (Mark 10:18, John 17:3, John 20:17, John 14:28, John 10:29, John 5:30, Revelation 3:12, Matthew 27:46, Matthew 12:28, luke 11:20, Matthew 6:9-13, Matthew 26:39, John 7:16, John 14:24, John 12:49, John 4:34, John 6:38, Luke 22:42, John 8:42, Mark 13:32, Matthew 24:36, John 7:16)

Claim B. Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) is better than satan

No evidence to refute this claim

Conclusion:
'A' is questionable, disputable.
'B' is unquestionable, indisputable.

'A' needs clarification, 'B' doesn't.

If you want an equivalent question, you could ask:

Q: Does Allah say "I am God" or "Worship me"?

1. "O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous" (2:21)

2. "Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One, (1) Allah, the Eternal Refuge. (2) He neither begets nor is born, (3) Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (4)

3. "Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path." (3:51)

4. "Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him" (4:36)

5. "Say, [O Muhammad], "Do you argue with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere [in deed and intention] to Him." (139)

6. "They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers." (5:72)

7. "I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (5:117)

8. "That is Allah, your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things." (6:102)

9. "Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne." (7:54)

10. "We had certainly sent Noah to his people, and he said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. Indeed, I fear for you the punishment of a tremendous Day." (7:59)

11. "And to the 'Aad [We sent] their brother Hud. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. Then will you not fear Him?" (7:65)

12. "And to the Thamud [We sent] their brother Salih. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah [sent] to you as a sign. So leave her to eat within Allah 's land and do not touch her with harm, lest there seize you a painful punishment." (7:73)

13. "And to [the people of] Madyan [We sent] their brother Shu'ayb. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. So fulfill the measure and weight and do not deprive people of their due and cause not corruption upon the earth after its reformation. That is better for you, if you should be believers." (7:85)

14. "And to 'Aad [We sent] their brother Hud. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. You are not but inventors [of falsehood]." (11:50)

15. "And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers." (16:36)

16. "O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and worship your Lord and do good - that you may succeed." (22:77)

17. "And We had certainly sent Noah to his people, and he said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him; then will you not fear Him?" (23:23)

18. "And We sent among them a messenger from themselves, [saying], "Worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him; then will you not fear Him?" (23:32)

19. "And We had certainly sent to Thamud their brother Salih, [saying], "Worship Allah," and at once they were two parties conflicting." (27:45)

20. "And [We sent] Abraham, when he said to his people, "Worship Allah and fear Him. That is best for you, if you should know." (29:16)

21. "And to Madyan [We sent] their brother Shu'ayb, and he said, "O my people, worship Allah and expect the Last Day and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption." (29:36)

22. "So prostrate to Allah and worship [Him]." (53:62)

23. "Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (2:133)

24. "[Such believers are] the repentant, the worshippers, the praisers [of Allah], the travelers [for His cause], those who bow and prostrate [in prayer], those who enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong, and those who observe the limits [set by] Allah. And give good tidings to the believers." (9:112)

25. "Say, "Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things?" (6:164)

26. "Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, I have been commanded to worship Allah, [being] sincere to Him in religion." (39:11)

27. "Rather, worship [only] Allah and be among the grateful." (39:66)

28. "Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance." (14)

And so on...

That's how Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) makes Himself known. Allah would never chose to allow people to come to that conclusion themselves (as you explained for Jesus), because the people would excuse themselves on that day and say "You never told us, you left it for us to come to that conclusion, so don't blame us for not believing". Instead, Allah is clear in the Quran, and on that day we won't have that excuse because He was explicit in identifying Himself. The Holy Quran is a miracle from God, a blessing and a mercy for His creation, if only most of us would know.

"Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants." (17:88)

$5000 Reward If Jesus said - I am God Worship Me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZmd4D9R3d0


No Mohammad (pbuh) didn't say any of this because he is a messenger and not God. I didn't claim he said any of this.

If the bible states that Jesus said he will "judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell", then I wouldn't believe those words to be his.


Different type of plural, a royal "we". نحن للتعظيم

This is a type of plural to illustrate greatness.

Qur'an uses 'WE' for Allah (Two types of plural)
http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=492%3Aquran-uses-we-for-allah&catid=72%3Amcq-who-have-some-knowledge-about-islam&Itemid=199

Why Does Quran Say "We & He"?
http://www.godallah.com/we_and_he.php

معنى استخدام الضمير "نحن" في القرآن
http://islamqa.info/ar/ref/606

Originally posted by TG12345

If God chose not to guide people from the beginning, does this mean it is His will that people would wander off His path?

It might be so, Allah knows best. We are all born with the same Fitrah from Allah. He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) gave us everything, and free choice to do what we want and an intellect to decide with. He gave us prophets, signs, warnings, lessons, examples etc. Indeed we cannot count his infinite favours and blessings. But it's undeniable that some will believe whilest others won't. Why? Allah knows best. Whatever is His will, I submit to it.

Originally posted by TG12345

Why was God according to your faith incapable of sending just one messenger and getting His message out the first time?

He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) is capable of anything. If any muslim tells you otherwise then they are wrong.

Originally posted by TG12345

Why did He not preserve all of the books before the Quran?

This is a good question. And maybe one of the muslim brothers or sisters can jump in on this. What I can say is this, we know and believe that the divine message from Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) was sent to us incrementally, bit by bit, through various prophets, over time, to different people. The message was constantly corrupted and people would repeatedly deviate from the true message sent to them. We know many of these occurrences and the prophets that had to endure them. Some prophets had scriptures and some didn't. But as we know it was a common trend for the message to get corrupted throughout history. And through those events of deviation and corruption, the next message can take that lesson and teach it to the next generation. In other words, those events in history serve as a warning, a lesson and example to learn from. This is the wisdom behind it in my opinion. So now we reach to the final prophet and his message from Allah. Why is God preserving this final message? Because if it was not preserved, it would have the same fate as all the other messages throughout history, it would eventually get corrupted and people would once again deviate, and that would mean complete loss of hope for us until the end of time. The last message had to be preserved by Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala). And Allah knows best.



Edited by Rational - 30 January 2013 at 6:41am

Assalamo alaik truthnowcome,

I think it's safe to say that we're still within the original topic since believing in Jesus (alaihi as-salam) as God is shirk, a one way ticket to hell. Wa Allaho alam. But then again i didn't read the entire thread so i might be wrong :)

Edited by Rational - 29 January 2013 at 11:30pm