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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL Post Reply Post New Topic
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 3:16am
For Caringheart
 

Sahih International

 

And We will present Hell that Day to the Disbelievers, on display –

Those whose eyes had been within a cover [removed] from My remembrance, and they were not able to hear.

Then do those who disbelieve think that they can take My servants instead of Me as allies? Indeed, We have prepared Hell for the disbelievers as a lodging.

Say, [O Muhammad], "Shall we [believers] inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?

[They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work."

Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any importance.

That is their recompense - Hell - for what they denied and [because] they took My signs and My messengers in ridicule.

18:100-106

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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:25am
Hi Eoah,

Quote: Personally, I don't need miracles to believe in Jesus: All I need is his life and his teachings. I don't want to argue whether the miracles happened or not. But my own personal miracle was when I became a Christian at the age of 10 years old and experianced the Holy Spirit for the first time. It was totally shocking in its unexpectedness; I had no idea I could feel so much joy. I was actually asked: "Do you want to ask Jesus to come into your life?" At the time I just assumed that "Getting Jesus into my life" was just a manner of speaking that actually mean't "-getting God into my life through acknowledging Jesus as my saviour". At the time, it never occurred to me that Christians actually worshipped some sort of "Jesus Deity" - That would be soooo against the 10 commandments!!! Don't even think about it!
I grew up where when you go to church they say: "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" and that it was called the 'Trinity'. And, let's face it: I believe in the Father; I believe in the Son; I believe in the Holy Ghost and I still do. But, if someone had told me that the Trinity was believing in 3 Gods in 1 God....that is a despicable Blasphemy against God no matter how many Christians believed in it!

Response: --- These early life experiences are genuine and in making the decision to accept Jesus as Savior, --- is what the Scripture teaches, --- And the experience of Joy is the Holy Spirit that comes to dwell within, and will be our Guide through life.
--- If we rebel against God’s guidance through His Holy Spirit, we can ‘quiet’ this voice of guidance, and go back to following our own conscience.

However, as we grow up going to Church, or Churches, we learn about the Word of God, and how the Scriptures apply to our lives.

Nevertheless, we are taught some doctrines (teaching) like the trinity, --- which is not taught in the Scriptures, but was decided in a Church meeting in 325 AD. --- It was a faulty doctrine from the beginning, and in most Churches it has found its way in as a ‘tradition,’ --- but it causes all the controversy that continues on this forum.
--- I don’t have an argument with what others believe because that is the way they have learned it, but they have difficulty in explaining their belief.

While Christians praise and glorify Jesus, our worship is to God through Jesus as it says in John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

And Jesus said we are to ‘Pray to the Father, in Jesus’ name.’ --- We are not taught to worship Jesus, but to worship God. --- Nor are we to follow any ‘Unitarian’ teaching which is unscriptural, --- but while we keep reading the Scriptures and following the teachings of Jesus, our Savior and Role Model, --- and asking God to guide us by His Holy Spirit, --- then we will be led rightly, will we not?
And we can know the Joy that came with our first encounter when we were young.

Jesus was CALLED the Son of God in Luke 1:
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.
--- (I capitalized CALLED to emphasize that Jesus was not another God.)
--- But as John said in 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him,
10 He (The Word) was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This is what I understand:
Through the virgin birth Jesus was the Perfect man, --- and the Word (Logos), ‘that was in the beginning with God’ came down to indwell Jesus in a human body. --- So Jesus (meaning Savior) had a human body, and Christ (meaning Messiah) was the Word that came down from heaven to indwell Him, so this ‘Unique’ One was the Manifestation of God in the world.


Placid

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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:46am
Originally posted by Rational


I want to know, Did the ONE God die?


Greetings Rational,

No, God is Spirit.  Spirit does not die.
I find it impossible to explain Father, Son and Holy Ghost being One.  I believe God has to reveal it to you and your heart has to be open before God can reveal it.
It would be like, my hand could die because of gangrene, but I would still live.  A part of me can die while I continue to exist.
Jesus was only the flesh part of God the undescribable, entity.

Salaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by Rational

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Peace to you also.
Originally posted by TG12345

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say those who have seen him have seen Allah?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet claim they will be judging the nations and deciding who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say that He and God are one?

Originally posted by Rational

Because they are not God, including Jesus (alayhi assalam). Jesus did not claim divinity. If you have read that in the Bible in other words, then either you have misunderstood the verse due to brainwashing or it is not his words. The Bible is not to be trusted. Allah did not send Himself to live among His creation to "allow" them to kill Him. Take a step back and think about it.

Whether the Bible is to be trusted or not is another discussion. However, it is clear that according to Christ's words... that are recorded in it... He was claiming to be God.


Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus was worshiped several times, and not once did He rebuke those who were worshiping Him.

Originally posted by Rational

Let's try this one more time. Please show me in the Bible where Jesus said "worship me" or the father said "worship Jesus" or someone else said "I worship Jesus". In those words, not in other words. I want to see the words "Worship" and "Jesus". Good luck with that.

Jesus did not say "worship me" in the Bible, and neither did the Father say to worship Christ. That does not disprove the fact that He was worshiped and that He said things about Himself that indicated He is God.

Let me ask you a question. Where in the Quran does Allah say that He is not Satan? Where does Muhammad say Allah is not Satan?

If this exact phrase is not found (I want to see the words "Allah" and "Satan" with "not" between them), does that mean that Allah is Satan?

Do you see how senseless this challenge is?


Originally posted by TG12345

John 17:1-5

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Would a messenger of God have had glory with God before the world came into existence? Did Muhammad share God's glory... before he was even born? Before the world came into being?

Originally posted by Rational

Read verses John 17:1-4, it's obvious that a messenger is praying to his Lord, his God. The context from 1-4 clearly refutes your claims. Verse 5 could mean anything, so again nothing concrete.

If verse 5 could mean anything, then what does it mean? Did Muhammad share glory with God before the world existed?

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus while on earth was man as well as God. As man, He called the Father His God.

Originally posted by Rational

You're saying that God is suffering from schizophrenia. Astakfur Allah

I find that to be quite insulting, actually, but as we are debating and I know you are not attacking or insulting me purposefully I'll let it pass.

God does not suffer schizophrenia. Saying He is schizophrenic because as Jesus (the Son) He called Himself (the Father) God isn't different from saying that according to Islam God is incompetent since of the 124,000 messengers He sent only one's message came through.

Originally posted by TG12345

I find it interesting that you use this verse to prove your point, as it contradicts what the Quran teaches about Jesus not being the Son of God, and about Christians not being His children.


Originally posted by Rational

I didn't share my opinion on this verse. If you take out the portion with "father", you still have the same problem. It serves as evidence against the idea that Jesus is God.

But the verse does say Father. You can't take it out without changing what it said.

I already explained why Jesus referred to the Father as God.

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus was both man and God while on earth.


Originally posted by Rational

Jesus was man and God down here, while God the father was chilling up there?

What's with the slang? Should I start referring to Muhammad as "Mo"?

To answer your question, yes. God existed simultaneously as Jesus and was fully man and God at the same time, while also existing as the Father in heaven and the Holy Spirit?

Originally posted by TG12345

"Supposing him to be the gardener"

Originally posted by Rational

Why did she think that Jesus (alyhi assalam) was the "gardener"?

Because she did not recognize Him.

Originally posted by TG12345

"When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord"
“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

Originally posted by Rational

Why didn't he reveal his face instead? How do people best recognise one another, by their faces or their hands/nails/sides? 


Because one of the times He tried to do that, people thought He was a spirit.

This is detailed in Luke

Luke 24:36-42

36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,b]">[b] 43 and he took it and ate before them.

When Jesus appeared to some of His disciples, they thought they had seen a spirit. He told them to touch His hands and feet.

Originally posted by TG12345

If you took the time to read the Bible in its entirety, you would understand that Jesus, while on earth, made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father.

Originally posted by TG12345

The question remains, why?


It was God's will to do so.

Like you believe it was His will to send 124,000 prophets to earth even though only one's message according to what your faith teaches would be not corrupted.

I won't speculate on God's mind and what I am about to share is my opinion only, however perhaps one reason why He would choose to make Himself inferior would be to demonstrate to human beings what it means to be humble to God and to sacrifice. If God was able to make Himself humble and to love sacrificially, what excuse have we for not doing so?
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Rational

TG12345 and Caringheart,

When I asked about God dying (in your belief), TG initially said that God died temporarily and Caringheart said that God didn't die. After that, you both gave a similar answer, that the Son died, the Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

Summary:
Originally posted by TG12345

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.

I asked, "If He died who brought Him back?", TG said:
Originally posted by TG12345

He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.

You say you worship ONE God.

I want to know, Did the ONE God die?


Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

God both died as the Son and stayed alive as the Father and Holy Spirit.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by Eoah

Posted by TG12345:

"Alaikum Salaam Eoah,

You just said the Holy Spirit is God almighty. Do you believe that the Father is God also? You believe God is one, yet you believe He exists as the Father and the Holy Spirit, do you not? Why then is it impossible for Him to be one and exist as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?"

Because the Son is NOT God and the ideology of trinity is NOT in the Bible:  Yes, I acknowledge the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost exist in the Bible, but when these 3 are exploited by Satan, through the council of Nicea, into 3 Gods. Now that is a heresy that is an insult to God and his commandments!

Salaam alaikum, Eoah. May the peace of Christ be with you.

The council of Nicae does not teach there are three gods, but that God exists as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is also what the Bible teaches.

If believing that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit = one God according to you means belief in three gods, then using your logic, you stating that the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God means you believe in two Gods. Do you? According to you is the Father God #1 and the Holy Spirit God #2? Are you a polytheist?

If not, then what makes you think believing God exists as a trinity makes one a heretic?

Originally posted by Eoah

Do you know that he denied the crucifixion of Jesus?

No.  Please show me the verses please.  I do in fact believe that the crucifixion happened.


You want to see the verse where Muhammad denied the crucifixion?

Quite frankly, I am surprised the Muslim posters here didn't jump in sooner than I did on this one.

Here you go:

4:157

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.


http://quran.com/4

According to Muhammad (or whoever is the author of the Quran), not only Jesus was not crucified, but those who are "in doubt" about another person made to resemble Jesus "have no knowledge". That basically includes me and you, and every other Christian (as well as many non-Christians) who know He was crucified.

Given that you believe Jesus was crucified and that Muhammad clearly stated that He wasn't, do you still believe him to have been a prophet and is he your spiritual role model- even though he denied what Christ did for us on the cross?

Originally posted by Eoah

  And if you want to judge me as being a non Christian, that is your opinion.  But, I know in my heart what I am and God can see in my heart what I am.  I don't need your permission to be a Christian.


You used some lovely terminology to describe those of us who believe in what the Bible says, that Jesus is God (your words were "Jesus Idol Worshipers", to be exact).

Personally, I don't believe you are a Christian. I don't judge you for it. I don't even hold you in contempt, like you hold in contempt Christians who believe He is God.

I pray that one day you do accept His divinity.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

For TG12345
 

Sahih International

 

And We have certainly diversified in this Qur'an for the people from every [kind of] example; but man has ever been, most of anything, [prone to] dispute.

And nothing has prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them and from asking forgiveness of their Lord except that there [must] befall them the [accustomed] precedent of the former peoples or that the punishment should come [directly] before them.

And We send not the messengers except as bringers of good tidings and warners. And those who disbelieve dispute by [using] falsehood to [attempt to] invalidate thereby the truth and have taken My verses, and that of which they are warned, in ridicule.

And who is more unjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away from them and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.

18:54-57



To Abu Loren

Romans 5:1,2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea]">[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faithb]">[b] into this grace in which we stand, and wec]">[c] rejoiced]">[d] in hope of the glory of God.


I pray that one day you find this peace also.
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2013 at 2:51am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Rational


I want to know, Did the ONE God die?


Greetings Rational,

No, God is Spirit.  Spirit does not die.

Thank you Caringheart.
الله
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