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Rational
 
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2013 at 5:18pm
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

You asked me to show you where Jesus "I am God, worship me". I showed you things that He said that no other person would say unless He was claiming to be God.

Yes I did ask you that. I read those versus very thoroughly. They did not convince me that I should worship Jesus (pbuh). In fact, they lean towards him being a man dependant on God, because he constantly relies on the father when he speaks and identifies the father as his superior, and God does not have a superior. Jesus does not explicitly say "I am God" or anything close to that, and he does not say "Worship me" or anything close to that. God (Almighty) has always been very explicit when identifying Himself, He explicitly declares and glorifies Himself as God and to be worshiped. He (Almighty) wants to be known. Jesus on the other hand never did this because if he was God, he would have made it straightforward for us to recognise him as God. Instead, we're disputing this because the Bible doesn't do justice to your claim that he is God. You are depending on implicit statements that don't conclusively prove that he is God, you even said it yourself "God However, He did make it very clear He is God in other words." Exactly my point, why is God using other words to tell us he is God? Those other words could mean God to you, man to me. They are not concrete. If he was indeed God, he would have been absolutely clear about his claim to be God.

Let's see what Jesus (pbuh) said, explicitly:

John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent"

Here a messenger is talking to God. Explicit and clear. A Muslim accepts wholeheartedly that this verse is the words of Jesus (pbuh) because it's identical to the first pillar of Islam, the Shahada, which every muslim declares:

"There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger"

Two messengers worshiping the same One God.

John 20:17
"Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Here Jesus (pbuh) clearly equates
his father and God as being our father and God, the same one God. So Jesus and the rest of us share the same God. Jesus is like us, a creation that has a God. Therefore he cannot be God. And if he was God, he could have said "I am ascending to myself", but he didn't.

John 14:28
"for My Father is greater than I"

If jesus (pbuh) was claiming to be God, then he would not say that the father is greater than him, because they would be the same.



Edited by Rational - 23 January 2013 at 5:54pm
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2013 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Eoah


I wonder what the percentage of Christians who worship only God Almighty and none other - compared to all the rest.  It must be a tiny minority.  Maybe less than 5%?

 
G'day mate (I'm not an Aussie)
 
Well what is the definition of a Christian? A follower of Christ. A Christian is taught that Jesus is devine and the NT is overtaken by Pauline Trinitarians so if a Christian accept Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) just as the Messiah and not devine then he/she is thinking outside the box.
 
However, I have heard the term 'Unitarian Christian' before and I think more and more "Christians" are coming around to the idea that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was not devine.
 
On another thread Carignheart asked why God would breathe His spirit into Jesus (Alayhi Salaam). Surely the answer is very simple, it was to show that God can do anything and to show that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was a miracle birth through a virgin. Also to show to the doubters that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was indeed the promised Messiah.
 
Why does his birth or his life needs to have devine qualities? Surely the idea that God Almighty can live among his creatures is abominable?
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Quote Eoah Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:10am
Posted by TG12345:

"Alaikum Salaam Eoah,

You just said the Holy Spirit is God almighty. Do you believe that the Father is God also? You believe God is one, yet you believe He exists as the Father and the Holy Spirit, do you not? Why then is it impossible for Him to be one and exist as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?"

Because the Son is NOT God and the ideology of trinity is NOT in the Bible:  Yes, I acknowledge the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost exist in the Bible, but when these 3 are exploited by Satan, through the council of Nicea, into 3 Gods. Now that is a heresy that is an insult to God and his commandments!

Do you know that he denied the crucifixion of Jesus?

No.  Please show me the verses please.  I do in fact believe that the crucifixion happened.

  And if you want to judge me as being a non Christian, that is your opinion.  But, I know in my heart what I am and God can see in my heart what I am.  I don't need your permission to be a Christian.
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Quote Eoah Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 1:32am
Posted by Abu Loren:

G'day mate (I'm not an Aussie)
 
Well what is the definition of a Christian? A follower of Christ. A Christian is taught that Jesus is devine and the NT is overtaken by Pauline Trinitarians so if a Christian accept Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) just as the Messiah and not devine then he/she is thinking outside the box.
 
However, I have heard the term 'Unitarian Christian' before and I think more and more "Christians" are coming around to the idea that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was not devine.

Gidday Abu Loren.  Assalamu alaykum to you. ( I haven't figgered out how to get a quote box, so italics will have to do.)

I googled Unitarian Church and I guess I am not so alone in my beliefs.

What you say is well put.

  Personally, I don't need miracles to believe in Jesus:  All I need is his life and his teachings.  I don't want to argue whether the miracles happened or not.  But my own personal miracle was when I became a Christian at the age of 10 years old and experianced the Holy Spirit for the first time.  It was totally shocking in its unexpectedness; I had no idea I could feel so much joy.  I was actually asked: "Do you want  to ask Jesus to come into your life?"  At the time I just assumed that "Getting Jesus into my life" was just a manner of speaking that actually mean't "-getting God into my life through acknowledging Jesus as my saviour".  At the time, it never occurred to me that Christians actually worshipped some sort of "Jesus Deity" -  That would be soooo against the 10 commandments!!!  Don't even think about it!

I grew up where when you go to church they say: "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" and that it was called the 'Trinity'.  And, let's face it: I believe in the Father; I believe in the Son; I believe in the Holy Ghost and I still do.  But, if someone had told me that the Trinity was believing in 3 Gods in 1 God....that is a despicable Blasphemy against God no matter how many Christians believed in it!
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 4:50am
Originally posted by Rational

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Wa alaikum salaam.

Originally posted by TG12345

You asked me to show you where Jesus "I am God, worship me". I showed you things that He said that no other person would say unless He was claiming to be God.

Originally posted by Rational

Yes I did ask you that. I read those versus very thoroughly. They did not convince me that I should worship Jesus (pbuh). In fact, they lean towards him being a man dependant on God, because he constantly relies on the father when he speaks and identifies the father as his superior, and God does not have a superior. Jesus does not explicitly say "I am God" or anything close to that, and he does not say "Worship me" or anything close to that. God (Almighty) has always been very explicit when identifying Himself, He explicitly declares and glorifies Himself as God and to be worshiped. He (Almighty) wants to be known. Jesus on the other hand never did this because if he was God, he would have made it straightforward for us to recognise him as God. Instead, we're disputing this because the Bible doesn't do justice to your claim that he is God. You are depending on implicit statements that don't conclusively prove that he is God, you even said it yourself "God However, He did make it very clear He is God in other words." Exactly my point, why is God using other words to tell us he is God? Those other words could mean God to you, man to me. They are not concrete. If he was indeed God, he would have been absolutely clear about his claim to be God.

If these other words mean He is saying He is only a man, then again, let me ask you:

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say those who have seen him have seen Allah?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet claim they will be judging the nations and deciding who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say that He and God are one?

If according to you, these were just "implicit statements", then surely there would have been other prophets who would have said such things.

There weren't. They were all merely human beings. Jesus was much more than that.

Jesus was worshiped several times, and not once did He rebuke those who were worshiping Him. One would think that if He was not God but merely a man, He would have told the people worshiping Him to worship God alone. I am sure that is what Muhammad would have done, wouldn't he?


Originally posted by TG12345

Let's see what Jesus (pbuh) said, explicitly:

John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent"

Here a messenger is talking to God. Explicit and clear. A Muslim accepts wholeheartedly that this verse is the words of Jesus (pbuh) because it's identical to the first pillar of Islam, the Shahada, which every muslim declares:

"There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger"

Two messengers worshiping the same One God.

Let's look at some of the context of the passage, and then tell me if you still think He was merely a messenger.

John 17:1-5

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Would a messenger of God have had glory with God before the world came into existence? Did Muhammad share God's glory... before he was even born? Before the world came into being?

If you can find me any proof of Muhammad or any other messenger or prophet claiming he had glory with God before the world existed, it would help to serve your cause and show that Jesus was a messenger like any other prophet. Good luck with that.

Jesus while on earth was man as well as God. As man, He called the Father His God.

Originally posted by TG12345

John 20:17

"Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Here Jesus (pbuh) clearly equates
his father and God as being our father and God, the same one God. So Jesus and the rest of us share the same God. Jesus is like us, a creation that has a God. Therefore he cannot be God. And if he was God, he could have said "I am ascending to myself", but he didn't.

I find it interesting that you use this verse to prove your point, as it contradicts what the Quran teaches about Jesus not being the Son of God, and about Christians not being His children.

Jesus was both man and God while on earth.

Also, later in John 20, Thomas saw Jesus. He didn't believe He could have been alive after the crucifixion (another fact that Islam denies) and declared that unless he see His hands and the mark of the nails and put his hands into His side (which was pierced by the spear), he would never believe. Jesus then appeared and  let Thomas do just that.

Thomas then cried "My Lord and my God!"

That would have been an excellent oppurtunity for Jesus to rebuke Thomas for calling Him his God.

Instead, He said this:

“Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


John 20:11-29

11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic,b]">[b] “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”—and that he had said these things to her.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples

19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews,c]">[c] Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Jesus and Thomas

24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin,d]">[d] was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The Purpose of This Book

30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.




Originally posted by TG12345

John 14:28

"for My Father is greater than I"

If jesus (pbuh) was claiming to be God, then he would not say that the father is greater than him, because they would be the same.



If you took the time to read the Bible in its entirety, you would understand that Jesus, while on earth, made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father.

Philippians 2:4-11

Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,a]">[a] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,b]">[b] being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 7:33pm
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say those who have seen him have seen Allah?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet claim they will be judging the nations and deciding who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say that He and God are one?

Because they are not God, including Jesus (alayhi assalam). Jesus did not claim divinity. If you have read that in the Bible in other words, then either you have misunderstood the verse due to brainwashing or it is not his words. The Bible is not to be trusted. Allah did not send Himself to live among His creation to "allow" them to kill Him. Take a step back and think about it.

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus was worshiped several times, and not once did He rebuke those who were worshiping Him.

Let's try this one more time. Please show me in the Bible where Jesus said "worship me" or the father said "worship Jesus" or someone else said "I worship Jesus". In those words, not in other words. I want to see the words "Worship" and "Jesus". Good luck with that.

Originally posted by TG12345

John 17:1-5

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Would a messenger of God have had glory with God before the world came into existence? Did Muhammad share God's glory... before he was even born? Before the world came into being?

Read verses John 17:1-4, it's obvious that a messenger is praying to his Lord, his God. The context from 1-4 clearly refutes your claims. Verse 5 could mean anything, so again nothing concrete.

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus while on earth was man as well as God. As man, He called the Father His God.

You're saying that God is suffering from schizophrenia. Astakfur Allah

Originally posted by TG12345

I find it interesting that you use this verse to prove your point, as it contradicts what the Quran teaches about Jesus not being the Son of God, and about Christians not being His children.

I didn't share my opinion on this verse. If you take out the portion with "father", you still have the same problem. It serves as evidence against the idea that Jesus is God.

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus was both man and God while on earth.

Jesus was man and God down here, while God the father was chilling up there?

Originally posted by TG12345

"Supposing him to be the gardener"

Why did she think that Jesus (alyhi assalam) was the "gardener"?

Originally posted by TG12345

"When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord"
“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

Why didn't he reveal his face instead? How do people best recognise one another, by their faces or their hands/nails/sides?

Originally posted by TG12345

If you took the time to read the Bible in its entirety, you would understand that Jesus, while on earth, made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father.

The question remains, why?


Edited by Rational - 24 January 2013 at 8:37pm
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 8:01pm
TG12345 and Caringheart,

When I asked about God dying (in your belief), TG initially said that God died temporarily and Caringheart said that God didn't die. After that, you both gave a similar answer, that the Son died, the Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

Summary:
Originally posted by TG12345

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.

I asked, "If He died who brought Him back?", TG said:
Originally posted by TG12345

He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.

You say you worship ONE God.

I want to know, Did the ONE God die?


Edited by Rational - 24 January 2013 at 11:10pm
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 3:07am
For TG12345
 

Sahih International

 

And We have certainly diversified in this Qur'an for the people from every [kind of] example; but man has ever been, most of anything, [prone to] dispute.

And nothing has prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them and from asking forgiveness of their Lord except that there [must] befall them the [accustomed] precedent of the former peoples or that the punishment should come [directly] before them.

And We send not the messengers except as bringers of good tidings and warners. And those who disbelieve dispute by [using] falsehood to [attempt to] invalidate thereby the truth and have taken My verses, and that of which they are warned, in ridicule.

And who is more unjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away from them and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.

18:54-57

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