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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 2:50pm
All Christians will go to hell?  and what about the non-Christian?
Let us examine.

Man:  "Lord I never knew You"
Jesus:  "and yet you have lived in every way according to what I have taught."
Man:  "Have I Lord?"
Jesus:  "You have always sought the Father and now you see me.  Do you see that I am the Son?"
Man:  "Yes Lord, Yes I do."

and what judgement do you think Jesus will pass on this man?

You see whatever path one has taken, if they have been seeking God, they will one day see the Truth of Jesus... and yes, Jesus is ,the way, to the Father.  Jesus is the One to grant admission to His kingdom.

Just something to ponder.


You do know that satan loves nothing more than to cause strife... to see arguing for no purpose other than the sake of arguing.
Let us converse with one another, not argue over details.

Peace and blessings to all. Heart

Edited by Caringheart - 22 January 2013 at 2:51pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 2:56pm
The new testament(mystery) is concealed in the old (the prophesy of Jesus to come)
and the old testament(mystery) is revealed in the new (the coming of Jesus reveals what was hidden in the old testament)


 ...that I might fully declare God's Word--that sacred mystery which up till now has been hidden in every age and every generation, but which is now as clear as daylight to those who love God.



Edited by Caringheart - 05 February 2013 at 9:03pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Rational


Confused



Your ability to copy and paste silly faces is amazing and astounding. When you have something to actually add to the discussion, let me know.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Rational

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran claim that those who have seen him have seen God?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that He and God are one?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

Originally posted by TG12345

Ofcourse they didn't because thier books were not corrupted like yours. Why are you stating the obvious? Your fabricated book says this because it's corrupt. Jesus (pbuh) never wanted to be worshipped. He is a creation and you should not worship the creation, you should only worship the Creator. If you'll happen to be alive when Jesus (pbuh) returns to earth, make sure you get your facts straight before you walk up to him wearing a cross.


You asked me to show you where Jesus "I am God, worship me". I showed you things that He said that no other person would say unless He was claiming to be God.

When you meet Jesus, hopefully it will be before and not after you die and have to face Him and explain why you denied His divinity and suffering on the cross for you.

Speaking of corrupted holy books, the Quran can't even decide whether the traits and descriptions of Muhammad were hidden by Christians in the mythical "Injil" you believe was revealed to Him, or whether they should look in that same book (or remnants of it) to find him there.


Edited by TG12345 - 22 January 2013 at 4:00pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Stating that one God existing as three persons = polytheism on the part of Christians requires as much ignorance of Christianity as stating that ascribing 99+ attributes to God = believing there are 99+ gods on the part of Muslims requires ignorance of Islam.


Originally posted by TG12345

Stop talking rubbish. I can't take anymore in one day my bin is full.

Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

If this discussion is frustrating you or you are unable to respond to my points, no one is forcing you to continue.

Originally posted by TG12345

These are 99 specific Names of Allah, attributes of Allah. They describe Him (Azza Wa Jall). Not a single one of these names "manifested itself on earth as God for us to see", as you believe with your "Son of God". Not a single one of these names was conceived in a woman and later born on earth, as we Muslims believe happened to Jesus (pbuh). Because Jesus (pbuh) is a man, attributes belong to God.

Yet there are 99 of them. So to a person ignorant about Islam that could mean you believe in 99 gods.

Christianity teaches that God exists as three persons... it would take someone ignorant of Christian beliefs to claim it teaches in 3 different gods.

Originally posted by TG12345

Since God exists as three persons...

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died...

Definition of "Person":
Originally posted by Rational

1. A human being regarded as an individual.
2. Used in legal or formal contexts to refer to an unspecified individual.
3. A self-conscious or rational being.

Therefore by definition, each one of those "Persons" is an Individual, a self-conscious or rational being.

Definition of "Individual":
1. A distinct, indivisible entity; a single thing, being, instance, or item.
2. A single human being as distinct from a group.

Adjective
Single; separate: "individual tiny flowers".

So, each "Person" is a single, separate, distinct individual. And you have three persons. You say you worship One. By definition, you don't. By definition, you are worshiping three Persons, three Gods.

(God the father) + (God the son) + (God the spirit) = 3

No matter what fancy illustration you use to define 3=1, by definition you're wrong. What you really want is 3=3. Much easier.


If I believed that each of the three persons is a god, you would be right. But I don't. Neither do any Christians.

We believe one God exists and reveals Himself to humanity as the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. It is simple as that. This may be very different from your view of God, but it does not mean we do not believe He is one.

He is one God, who exists as three persons. Just because in your mind that immediately has to mean there are 3 separate gods does not make it so.


You believe there are 99 attributes of God. That the Quran talks about AlRahim and AlRahman does not mean you worship a Merciful god and
another compassionate god, and they are 2 of the 99 deities Muslims worship.


Edited by TG12345 - 22 January 2013 at 3:56pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Eoah

Greetings TG12345...and to all that have offered such interesting discussion on this hot topic.


"You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man."

No, it is you who is wrong! The creator cannot be creation.  The bottom line is that Jesus never said: "I am God", because Jesus is creation.  Even though God resides in Heaven, that doesn't imply that God doesn't reside on earth, for we can experiance the joy and the knowingness of God within creation through the Holy Spirit.  Now the Holy Spirit is not a separate God who is partner to God Almighty, either.  The Holy Spirit is God Almighty who is the one and only.

When Jesus said: "I and my father are one" it is because he is connected to God through the Holy Spirit.  Now, in that sentence it only seems like the Holy Spirit is a separate from God Almighty in Heaven.  God in Heaven and God on Earth (Holy Spirit) is a totally seamless awesome universal one being that is totally beyond our comprehention!!!  But, I love him and I live by him.  And Jesus is my spiritual role model, but even though I am a Christian, Prophet Mohammed is my spiritual role model too.  God bless them both!

There is nothing in the Bible that equates God as 3; there is nothing in the Bible that equates God with 2.  But, over and over in the bible God is one all the way, baby!  And the Quran backs that up over and over again that the Bible is true in the statement that God is one!  The council of Nicea can't argue with that.  And the council of Nicea don't have the authority to say God is 3 because they're not Prophets anointed by God.

Now TG12345, I might have alot of contempt for them "Jesus Idol worshippers",  but, I respect you and love you simply because you are on this forum with the courage to discuss your spiritual convictions.  May the One God Bless you.



Alaikum Salaam Eoah,

You just said the Holy Spirit is God almighty. Do you believe that the Father is God also? You believe God is one, yet you believe He exists as the Father and the Holy Spirit, do you not? Why then is it impossible for Him to be one and exist as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

If the statement "I and my Father are one" meant simply what you mean it says, then surely there would have been other prophets in the Old Testament or Quran who would have said such a thing. Someone (other than Jesus) also would have surely said He would judge the nations and condemn sinners to hell and doers of good to heaven, or that those who have seen him have seen the Father. If you can find me just one example of a prophet other than Jesus saying that, I will be more likely to consider this argument you are making.

I find it interesting that while you claim to be a Christian, you also make the statement that Muhammad is a Prophet and that he is your spiritual role model.

Do you know that he denied the crucifixion of Jesus?

If you agree with him that Jesus was not crucified, then I am sorry to tell you this but you are not a Christian. Unless you deny what Christ did for you on the cross, you cannot accept Muhammad as a prophet of God or a spiritual role model.




Edited by TG12345 - 22 January 2013 at 3:54pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Rational



TG, listen to your fellow Christian, our friend Eoah. He's telling you that Jesus is not God.


I can direct you to sites ran by your "fellow Muslims", who will tell you that hell will be emptied according to Islam, that Muhammad didn't stone anyone, and that the hadiths are Satanic fabrications.

I can direct you to other sides by "fellow Muslims" like Irshad Manjit who will tell you Islam needs to be reformed and that homosexuality is ok according to the Quran.

I have nothing against Eoah, but from his post that I just read and responded to, I believe he does not understand the truth about Jesus. You would probably argue that Irshad Manjit and Islam Revolution do not understand the truth about Islam.

Two can play this game.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

nospam001 wrote: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the remainder after division...
 
You are of course correct.  Clearly you are more than just a pretty face.  I should have been more careful in my equations.
 
OK, how about this for an explanation.  In the following equation:
 
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
I was clearly in error in claiming that the two numbers in red above are equivalent.  But consider the following two equations:
 
1 modulo 2 = 1
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
Here, the numbers 1 and 3 in red are equivalent.  Or, combining these statements into one, we get:
 
3 ≡ 1   (mod 2)
 
So, lets make this equation my mathematical analogy for the Trinity.
 
(I hope this equation reads OK at your end; I tried to insert that weird symbol consisting of three parallel horizontal lines, and had difficulty doing so)
 
(EDIT: hey, it just occured to me that the weird symbol consists of THREE horizontal lines.  Doesn't that make my equation twice as convincing as an argument proving the existance of the Trinity???)
 
********************
 
nospam001 wrote, in reference to a post by Caringheart: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity? 
 
Actually, I really like Caringheart's analogy.  I believe that the first three forces discovered by humans were electricity, magnetism, and gravity.  We now know that electricity and magnetism are, in fact, the same force.  If science ever does come up with a TOE ("theory of everything"), then we will have proven that gravity, electricity, and magnetism are all the same force.
 
So, then, are these three forces or one force?  In the Trinity, are there 3 gods or 1 god?  I think the analogy is quite good.
 
Of course, this analogy ignores the existance of the weak and strong forces, just as my modulo analogy ignores the fact that:
 
5 mod 2 = 3 mod 2
 
But that's the thing about analogies: they always break down at some point, and we must be careful not to take them too far.
 
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

You guys CANNOT be serious! Do you know how stoopid you guys look? All this science has clouded your brains.


Note to Abu Loren:

Salaam Alaikum.

Before you break Islamicity forum rules (again) by insulting other posters and to avoid bringing more embarrassment on yourself, consider using a spell checker.

It's spelled s-t-u-p-i-d. Not s-t-o-o-p-i-d.

End of Note.


Edited by TG12345 - 22 January 2013 at 4:25pm
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