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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL Post Reply Post New Topic
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Eoah
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Quote Eoah Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:38am
Greetings TG12345...and to all that have offered such interesting discussion on this hot topic.


"You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man."

No, it is you who is wrong! The creator cannot be creation.  The bottom line is that Jesus never said: "I am God", because Jesus is creation.  Even though God resides in Heaven, that doesn't imply that God doesn't reside on earth, for we can experiance the joy and the knowingness of God within creation through the Holy Spirit.  Now the Holy Spirit is not a separate God who is partner to God Almighty, either.  The Holy Spirit is God Almighty who is the one and only.

When Jesus said: "I and my father are one" it is because he is connected to God through the Holy Spirit.  Now, in that sentence it only seems like the Holy Spirit is a separate from God Almighty in Heaven.  God in Heaven and God on Earth (Holy Spirit) is a totally seamless awesome universal one being that is totally beyond our comprehention!!!  But, I love him and I live by him.  And Jesus is my spiritual role model, but even though I am a Christian, Prophet Mohammed is my spiritual role model too.  God bless them both!

There is nothing in the Bible that equates God as 3; there is nothing in the Bible that equates God with 2.  But, over and over in the bible God is one all the way, baby!  And the Quran backs that up over and over again that the Bible is true in the statement that God is one!  The council of Nicea can't argue with that.  And the council of Nicea don't have the authority to say God is 3 because they're not Prophets anointed by God.

Now TG12345, I might have alot of contempt for them "Jesus Idol worshippers",  but, I respect you and love you simply because you are on this forum with the courage to discuss your spiritual convictions.  May the One God Bless you.

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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:40am
Originally posted by Caringheart

and you should not be afraid to read the Bible.

I forgot to mention, my father is a Christian. I don't see him as much as I would like. He told me a while ago he thinks he is a muslim. I intend to discuss this the next time I see him Insha Allah.

I know your faith.


Edited by Rational - 22 January 2013 at 5:12am
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:45am
Originally posted by TG12345

Since God exists as three persons, while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not.

The Son died.

He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.

In regards to Caringheart's statement "God did not die"... this is true in the sense that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. God the Son died.

The Father, the Holy Spirit, the Son are one God. The Son died. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.

It's depressing to see people thinking they believe in one God but then come out with this nonsense. Read the verse that Abu Loren cited:

"They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." (135)


Edited by Rational - 22 January 2013 at 5:00am
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:56am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

The following is for preacher TG12345 read and UNDERSTAND.
 

Sahih International

 

Neither those who disbelieve from the People of the Scripture nor the polytheists wish that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord. But Allah selects for His mercy whom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty. 2:105

Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109

 

And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." 2:111

 

And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper. 2:120

 

They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." 2:135

 

Say, [O Muhammad], "Do you argue with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere [in deed and intention] to Him."

Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do. 2:139-140

 

Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it]. 2:146

 

 

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.

So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants. 3:19-20

 

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." 3:64

 

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists. 3:67

 

A faction of the people of the Scripture wish they could mislead you. But they do not mislead except themselves, and they perceive [it] not. 3:69

 

O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]? 3:71

 

O you who have believed, if you obey a party of those who were given the Scripture, they would turn you back, after your belief, [to being] unbelievers. 3:100

 

O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason. 3:118

 

 

You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination.

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased. 3:186-187

 

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness. 4:159

 

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171

 

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. 5:14-15

 

But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination. O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent. 5:18-19

 

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. 5:51

 

O you who have believed, take not those who have taken your religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given the Scripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if you should [truly] be believers. 5:57

 

Say, "O People of the Scripture, do you resent us except [for the fact] that we have believed in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed before and because most of you are defiantly disobedient?" 5:59

 

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people. 5:68

 

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. 5:116-117 

 

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it. 9:31-32

They have said, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He; He is the [one] Free of need. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. You have no authority for this [claim]. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know? 10:68

 

It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. 19:35

 

[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."

Then the factions differed [concerning Jesus] from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day. 19:36-37

 

Has the time not come for those who have believed that their hearts should become humbly submissive at the remembrance of Allah and what has come down of the truth? And let them not be like those who were given the Scripture before, and a long period passed over them, so their hearts hardened; and many of them are defiantly disobedient. 57:16

 

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. 98:6



Do you actually believe these verses applies to Christians and our faith?
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:59am
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

Since God exists as three persons, while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not

It's depressing to see people thinking they believe in one God but then come out with this nonsense. Read the verse that Abu Loren cited:

"They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." (135)

A polytheist is someone who believes in more than one God. We believe in one God, who has revealed Himself as three persons.

What is depressing (more amusing than depressing, actually) is the misunderstanding some Muslims clearly have of Christian beliefs.

Stating that one God existing as three persons = polytheism on the part of Christians requires as much ignorance of Christianity as stating that ascribing 99+ attributes to God = believing there are 99+ gods on the part of Muslims requires ignorance of Islam.
 

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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 5:21am
BEFORE
Originally posted by TG12345

God chose to die temporarily

AFTER
Originally posted by TG12345

The Son died.

while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not.

In regards to Caringheart's statement "God did not die"... this is true in the sense that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. God the Son died.

The Father, the Holy Spirit, the Son are one God. The Son died. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.

Confused

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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 5:33am
Originally posted by TG12345

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran claim that those who have seen him have seen God?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that He and God are one?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

Ofcourse they didn't because thier books were not corrupted like yours. Why are you stating the obvious? Your fabricated book says this because it's corrupt. Jesus (pbuh) never wanted to be worshipped. He is a creation and you should not worship the creation, you should only worship the Creator. If you'll happen to be alive when Jesus (pbuh) returns to earth, make sure you get your facts straight before you walk up to him wearing a cross.


Edited by Rational - 22 January 2013 at 5:37am
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 6:16am
nospam001 wrote: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the remainder after division...
 
You are of course correct.  Clearly you are more than just a pretty face.  I should have been more careful in my equations.
 
OK, how about this for an explanation.  In the following equation:
 
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
I was clearly in error in claiming that the two numbers in red above are equivalent.  But consider the following two equations:
 
1 modulo 2 = 1
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
Here, the numbers 1 and 3 in red are equivalent.  Or, combining these statements into one, we get:
 
3 ≡ 1   (mod 2)
 
So, lets make this equation my mathematical analogy for the Trinity.
 
(I hope this equation reads OK at your end; I tried to insert that weird symbol consisting of three parallel horizontal lines, and had difficulty doing so)
 
(EDIT: hey, it just occured to me that the weird symbol consists of THREE horizontal lines.  Doesn't that make my equation twice as convincing as an argument proving the existance of the Trinity???)
 
********************
 
nospam001 wrote, in reference to a post by Caringheart: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity? 
 
Actually, I really like Caringheart's analogy.  I believe that the first three forces discovered by humans were electricity, magnetism, and gravity.  We now know that electricity and magnetism are, in fact, the same force.  If science ever does come up with a TOE ("theory of everything"), then we will have proven that gravity, electricity, and magnetism are all the same force.
 
So, then, are these three forces or one force?  In the Trinity, are there 3 gods or 1 god?  I think the analogy is quite good.
 
Of course, this analogy ignores the existance of the weak and strong forces, just as my modulo analogy ignores the fact that:
 
5 mod 2 = 3 mod 2
 
But that's the thing about analogies: they always break down at some point, and we must be careful not to take them too far.
 


Edited by Reepicheep - 22 January 2013 at 6:38am
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