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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL Post Reply Post New Topic
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by TG12345

It is disgusting and provocative and foul to not be thankful to God for what He has done for us. He has created us and sent us prophets, and willingly came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. He willingly lived among us, suffered for us and died, so by accepting what He has done for us we can be led to salvation. By denying these things, you are basically showing Him your middle finger and saying "I don't care what You did for me. I am not grateful to the sacrifice you made. None of it happened anyways".

Originally posted by Rational

Jesus is not God, he is a man. And God does not die. It's really that simple TG.


Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man. God chose to die temporarily. Jesus gave His life willingly. It was not taken from Him.

Originally posted by Rational

You're believes portray shame and weakness to God and this is blasphemous.

Shame? I also never said God is weak. I said He chose to temporarily let others harm Him and hurt Him. He was at no point less powerful than them. He allowed people to do the wrong things to Him.

Stating that God allowed Himself to be crucified means He is weak is like stating that God does not throw down thunderbolts on an atheist who dares Him because He can't. God chooses in how He acts. It is up to us to accept His will.

 
Originally posted by Rational

The guys you listen to changed the true message of Jesus (pbuh), they invented an idea. That's all they did. Who influenced them? Satan!  Who else but him? It's hard for you to swallow but it's true. It's fiction at best meant to separate you from the truth. That's all it is.

The book you believe is from God tells people to look into the "Gospel" to find Muhammad mentioned in it.  It also makes the claim about a book that no one in history except Muhammad and Muslims ever claimed to have existed and for which there is no proof whatsoever that it was there.

Originally posted by Rational

You're people are proving this everytime they foolishly attempt to describe a representation of this mysterious trinity thing. One day God is like an egg, another day like a three-headed dog, or 3=1 because Integer Modulo 2, or or or. You guys are stuck with it. It's all about innovation for you.

That's funny, because I never said God is any of the things you describe.

Originally posted by Rational

It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures. Subhan Allah. You've been praying to an idea since you were eighteen. Allah hears your prayers but how can he be pleased if you call Him Jesus. How can he be pleased when you're praying and saying things like "I thank you for spilling Your blood for me"? Unthinkable Astakfur Allah. This is how you thank your Creator, you Sustainer? You think He needs to kill himself for anything?

Where did I say God allowed others to kill Him because He "needed a backup plan"? Where did I say He needed to do that?

Please do us both a favour and don't put words in my mouth.

God chose to allow Himself to be crucified for us. He didn't need to do this. He didn't even need to create us. He chose to do all these things. Praise and honour and glory be to Him.

Originally posted by TG12345

If I am wrong and Islam is right, I am grateful to God and thanking Him for something He didn't do. If you are wrong and Christianity is right, you are in effect telling God you don't care about what He has done for you.

Originally posted by Rational

Not if, you are wrong. You are so wrong! You can't even begin to imagine how wrong you are. See I'd never say "if I'm wrong", because i know I'm not, because Islam gives me sufficient sound information to wash away any doubts, unlike you with your trinity.

Really? Then why have you been unable to refute the points I brought up?

Islam teaches that before Muhammad, all prophets were sent to their people only. Yet the Israelite Moses was sent to the Egyptian Pharaoh.

Islam teaches that the Christians and Jews hid the traits and descriptions of Muhammad in the Injil and Gospel... yet Christians and Jews are commanded to look in these books to find Muhammad mentioned therein!

Islam teaches that God told mankind that milk is palatable to those who drink it... yet a person with a milk allergy who drinks this drink will either get very sick or die.

Islam teaches that a person who eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning cannot be harmed by any toxin... yet you would never want to test this one out on someone and agree with me it would be cruel to feed a Muslim who lives by the above mentioned diet botulism.

Islam teaches that people have been decreasing in size from Adam's creation up to Muhammad's time. Yet history shows us that human height in at least one part of the world (Europe) has fluctuated and for the most part risen between the 1st and 6th century AD.


Originally posted by Rational

You're not thanking Him (The One God), your thanking an idea. And this is shirk, the only sin that Allah The Creator won't forgive. Fear what you are saying. Fear in Allah and give yourself a chance. You told me that you had doubts before in your faith. That was your heart telling you something. It's telling you it wants the truth, because it will only accept the truth, otherwise it won't be in peace. That's all your heart really wants, it wants peace. With Islam you get peace, everlasting peace and all your doubts are washed away. [/QUOTE[
I thank God for what He has done for me... and this is unfortunately what you as a Muslim are not doing by ignoring what Jesus did for us on the cross.

My faith and trust in God is strong enough to ask Him to show me if my faith or idea in Him is wrong. I have asked Him whether Islam is true. I am still learning about it. What I know so far very much indicates that it is not, but I continue reading the Quran.


Originally posted by TG12345

It is as offensive to me to hear people denying the crucifixion as it is to you to hear people affirming it.

Originally posted by Rational

That's why I have mixed opinions about debating with Christians on a regular basis. It can get very personal. But in the end it's worth it, given that both parties are willing to demonstrate in sensible reasoning, accept defeat when defeated and not deter from the topic being discussed. Otherwise it's time to move on.

On that we can agree.


Originally posted by TG12345

However, because God loves you I do not hate you and I will not demean you or insult you.

Originally posted by Rational

We're discussing sensitive topics here so expect a bit of something from time to time. But if I insulted you I never meant to.

Thank you, you have never said anything to me that is insulting or demeaning. I was referring to people who act like Abu Loren.

I expect people to get defensive from time to time, I know I do. I expect people to be passionate about their faith, I know I am.

It is when people start throwing insults and swearing and demeaning others is when it is wrong.

Originally posted by TG12345

BTW I have not been raised with these 'blasphemous doctrines'... I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I was eighteen. Religion was not taken seriously in my family.

Originally posted by Rational

That's good. You should have given Islam a fair chance by reading the Quran. I'd advise you to focus on the Quran first before you start reading the hadiths. The hadiths are taken as extra supporting material to the Quran. You should read and finish the Quran first. It seems you haven't completed reading the Quran yet still, this didn't stop you from making claims about Islam. You keep making statements about Mohammad (pbuh) having some truths and having some falsehoods, and that he's not a prophet blah blah blah. You haven't read the whole Quran, so please be fair to muslims and finish reading the Quran.

Have you read the whole Bible, Rational? All of it?

If not, does that mean you are not allowed to make comments about Christianity and what we believe?


Originally posted by TG12345

I believe Islam does not show God for who He really is, and I believe there are some mistakes in the Quran and hadiths that show that Islam is not from God.

Originally posted by Rational

Please finish reading the entire Quran and read the tafseer of all the versus to get a good understanding of the whole message. Otherwise don't make claims because you're proving that you don't care about what Islam has to teach, you just want to teach what you have.

I am still reading through the Quran. The claims that I make on this forum are based on the Quran and authentic hadiths, as well as what is on Muslim websites like IslamQA.

Please show me where I have misquoted Muslim sources if that is what you are alleging I am doing.

Originally posted by TG12345

I believe what is in the Bible to be true, and believe that much of your religion is false.

[QUOTE=Rational]This demonstrates how you make your claims while being ignorant in the Quran.


This is a conclusion I make based on what I have read so far.

Have you read the entire Bible?

Salaam.


Edited by TG12345 - 20 January 2013 at 3:24pm
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 6:14pm
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

God chose to die temporarily

Where did He go when he died? Did He exist during this time? Did the father die or just the son or all? If He died who brought Him back? Did He revive Himself? Please explain in more details if you can.

Originally posted by TG12345

That's funny, because I never said God is any of the things you describe.

I should've been clearer. I meant Christians in general saying this.

Originally posted by TG12345

Where did I say God allowed others to kill Him because He "needed a backup plan"? Where did I say He needed to do that?

Please do us both a favour and don't put words in my mouth.

I said:
"It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures."
I didn't say you said it. This is the impression I get from the Christian believe.

Originally posted by TG12345

He chose to do all these things

He chooses to do things that don't make much sense. That's not sensible.

Originally posted by TG12345

Really? Then why have you been unable to refute the points I brought up?

What points are you talking about? The Trinity or God killing himself?

Originally posted by TG12345

Have you read the whole Bible, Rational? All of it?

To say that I held the bible and read it cover to cover, then No. I don't have the interest in reading it all. The fundamental parts of worship are flawed from the outset, namely the Trinity and God dying for our sins. I don't see the need to go further than that. If those can't be justified then the Bible is flawed. On the other hand, you have nothing as significant against the glorious Quran. Your claims are baseless. For this reason I'm asking you to read the entire Quran for your own benefit.

Quick question, can you tell me where in the Bible that Jesus (pbuh) said "I am God, Worship me"? I want to see this in the Bible if it's there.

Originally posted by TG12345

Please show me where I have misquoted Muslim sources if that is what you are alleging I am doing.

I never said that you misquoted anything. Since you have this great interest in Islam you should read and finish the Quran. I don't have interest in the bible or the Christian faith because it's corrupt.


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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 6:45pm
Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

You have asked some really good and challenging questions, I thank you for this. I will be busy for the next 2 days, so although I will respond to your points, it will probably not be until Tuesday or Wednesday. If possible, I will do so sooner. Hope that is ok with you.

Shukran.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by Rational

I don't have interest in the bible or the Christian faith because it's corrupt.


Greetings Rational,

correction... "because you've been told it's corrupt."

You really should not dismiss the scriptures if you have not read them for yourself.

When I heard things about the qu'ran I decided to investigate for myself.  This is what truth seekers do.

Salaam,
CH
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 4:37am
Originally posted by Caringheart

correction... "because you've been told it's corrupt."

If you knew me, you'd now that I never follow anything before looking at the evidence myself. I don't care how many people are telling something, if I'm not convinced I'm not convinced. Simple! You can't convince me that God died no matter what examples or illustrations you give because it doesn't add up. I can assure you that the Bible in it's present form is a fabricated hoax. I've satisfied this conclusion to myself without anyone forcing it on me.

Originally posted by Caringheart

This is what truth seekers do.

I don't need to seek this truth because I already have it in my hands, it's called the Qur'an.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 9:20am
Greetings Rational,
"You can't convince me that God died no matter what examples or illustrations you give because it doesn't add up."
You are correct, God didn't die, because God is not flesh and only flesh can die.  God was not the flesh... Jesus was.  This does not make them mutually exclusive.  The flesh dies, the Spirit does not.  Jesus was the flesh, God was the Spirit.

"I don't need to seek this truth because I already have it in my hands, it's called the Qur'an."
Then why are you afraid to investigate for yourself what the Bible says and read it for yourself, just like I, and so many others, are reading the quran for ourselves? 

Salaam,
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Caringheart

You are correct, God didn't die, because God is not flesh and only flesh can die.  God was not the flesh... Jesus was.  This does not make them mutually exclusive.  The flesh dies, the Spirit does not.  Jesus was the flesh, God was the Spirit.

Sorry but this is the rubbish I'm talking about. Flesh this and spirit that. Now your saying he didn't die but TG said he died temporarily. You guys don't know what you believe. Why should I read the Bible when I have two Christians here giving me two contradicting claims. God died temporarily VS God didn't die.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Then why are you afraid to investigate for yourself what the Bible says and read it for yourself, just like I, and so many others, are reading the quran for ourselves? 

I'm afraid because it might deviate me from the truth.



Edited by Rational - 21 January 2013 at 10:04am
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 12:02pm
Greetings Rational,

I do not know that I agree with you, that TG and I disagree.  We just have our different ways of explaining a thing which is difficult to explain.
If TG says God died temporarily, I can see this as his way of saying that when Jesus flesh died, the Spirit of God was with the flesh, so God would have felt the death of the flesh part of His nature.  I don't know what TG means by 'temporary death'.  Perhaps he will explain it to me, or perhaps you can point me to where he writes about it.

All muslims do not think identically the same either.  That is an impossible and unrealistic thing to ask or expect.  It will always be about personal understanding.  This is nothing unusual with belief.  That is why it is known as beliefs.  We all have to come to our own understanding of God.
I would have to know what TG said to see if we disagree or not.

"Why should I read the Bible when I have two Christians here giving me two contradicting claims."
That is precisely why you should want to read for yourself.

I am led to read the qur'an because of the conflicting beliefs about what it says.   No two muslims can give me identical, exact responses about it either... except what they are taught to parrot, about it being the divine revelation of allah to Muhammad.

"I'm afraid because it might deviate me from the truth."
That's the point.  If you have the truth, you have no need to fear reading anything else.
I do not fear to read the qu'ran.  If it stands out as Truth I will know.

You bring me back to my original statement...
You should not dismiss the scriptures without reading them for yourself.
I say you are afraid to know the truth.  You are afraid to learn that the truth is not what you have been told... and not the one you have been following.

I do not dismiss the qu'ran without first reading it for myself.
But then I am truly seeking Truth and want to know Truth.   I am not wishing to hide from any part of it.

Salaam,
CH



Edited by Caringheart - 21 January 2013 at 12:07pm
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