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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL Post Reply Post New Topic
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nausheen,
"Associating partners is a sin"
We must be careful to discern what this means... associating partners with God. Did Muhammad have a divine birth? and yet you can not speak the name of allah without speaking also the name of Muhammad. So be careful in your discerning.


Hello Caringheart,

Perhaps you missed my statement in of the previous posts. Whatever I said here is from the standpoint of the Quran.
Im very careful in saying what is associating partners ... it may be different for a christian, and that is not the debate to make it clear.
According to the Islamic faith associating partners has a definition - according to that definition noone shares divinity with Allah.

I have seen your charges on raising the status of Muhammad next to Allah in another message a response to which is still pending ...
Declaration of faith includes the name of Muhammad (pbuh) as follows:

There is no god but God and Muhammad is His messenger.

We don't say Muhammad (pbuh) is god or a part of god or one with god etc, we call him His messenger. If this reads as attaching a status of divinity, then I cannot help.

It is said in the Quran that obedience to the messenger is obedience to Allah.
But for you the Quran was written by Muhammad (pbuh) himself - thus we can keep going in circles :)

Originally posted by Caringheart

"the belief that there is a god besides God"

Regarding this,This is what is so hard to make others understand"the belief that there is a god besides God"We do not believe there is a god besides God. We do not believe Jesus is a god. Jesus is One with God... a part of Him...the part that God Himself chose to send to this earth, to His creation, in human form,


According to our faith God does not have any parts in form of flesh and blood.
Flesh and blood is His creation, and very much separate from His entity.

I dont think its as hard to make others understand as you see it. Because I am reading many of TGs comments where he seems to understand most of our beliefs, including the differences between us and his faith.




Edited by Nausheen - 17 January 2013 at 11:46pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by TG12345


Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,

I was going to take a few days off and am cutting down a bit on the time I spend on here, but decided to answer some posts.I should clarify what I meant by posting the the verse. For a Christian, believing in Christ means more than believing He was a prophet. It means accepting He was the Son of God and God in the flesh, and accepting what He did for us on the cross, as well as His teachings.I would imagine it would be similar in Islam... Islam means submission to God if I am not mistaken and I would argue that as a Christian I submit (or do my best to, although at times I sin) to God but you would as a Muslim argue that in order to submit to God I need to believe Muhammad was His prophet, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and a variety of other things Islam teaches.Believing in Jesus means something else to a Christian than to a Muslim. Submitting to God means something else to a Muslim than to a Christian.Hope that clarified a bit what I meant. Take care.


Walaikum assalam TG,

Thank you for stopping by and giving clarification. I thought something similar, that is why I said we do not believe in Christ as you do ...

Somewhere on these forums I was told that serving God is the thing that will save us, even if we did not do so in the love of Christ ... perhaps I should make a fresh post on this subject and discuss my concerns when you have more time.

For now enjoy your break.

Peace to you!
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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nospam001
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 7:57pm
I know it's pedantic and tangential, but i couldn't resist...

Reepicheep: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the remainder after division, which might tempt irreverent comments from someone as warped as I am.

Caringheart: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity? Yes, it extends far beyond the subatomic scale, but so does electromagnetism, eg in the form of light. Yes, the Standard Model fails to address gravity, but if that's your point of reference, then you would have to unify the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces, so leaving only two - strong and 'electro-weak'. Hmm?
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by TG12345


Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,

I was going to take a few days off and am cutting down a bit on the time I spend on here, but decided to answer some posts.I should clarify what I meant by posting the the verse. For a Christian, believing in Christ means more than believing He was a prophet. It means accepting He was the Son of God and God in the flesh, and accepting what He did for us on the cross, as well as His teachings.I would imagine it would be similar in Islam... Islam means submission to God if I am not mistaken and I would argue that as a Christian I submit (or do my best to, although at times I sin) to God but you would as a Muslim argue that in order to submit to God I need to believe Muhammad was His prophet, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and a variety of other things Islam teaches.Believing in Jesus means something else to a Christian than to a Muslim. Submitting to God means something else to a Muslim than to a Christian.Hope that clarified a bit what I meant. Take care.


Walaikum assalam TG,

Thank you for stopping by and giving clarification. I thought something similar, that is why I said we do not believe in Christ as you do ...

Somewhere on these forums I was told that serving God is the thing that will save us, even if we did not do so in the love of Christ ... perhaps I should make a fresh post on this subject and discuss my concerns when you have more time.

For now enjoy your break.

Peace to you!


Wa alaikum salaam Nausheen,

sigh this forum is too awesome to take a real break from Smile I'll slow down in my responses but don't see myself walking too long away from it.

Please feel free to start a new thread, I'll gladly respond to it if not soon than in a few days.

Allahma3k.


PS If I was gone for too long, I think Abu Loren would get really worried and have one less Christian to insult to make himself feel better so I won't deprive him of that. Just kidding! Feel free to start the new thread and I'll respond to your points, probably sooner than later.

Salaam.


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Rational
 
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 10:47am
Originally posted by TG12345

God loves you and He spilled His blood for you on the cross.

TG, how can you say that he is insulting you when you are insulting God Himself? How can you say that Abu is using foul language when it is you that is using the most despicable, provocative and outright disgusting language towards your God? To say "He spilled His blood"? How far can you go? In the name of Allah, He (Almighty) will not be pleased with you when you stand before Him. You must realise the seriousness of what you are saying. You must have been raised with this blasphemous doctrines and it's engraved in your thoughts and find it hard to reason without them. You must abandon them. Your intentions might be sincere but your foundation is all wrong. It's blinding you from what is true. You must give yourself a chance. You owe it to yourself. This is madness what you are saying. I saw you in the video standing supporting the people of Palestine doing good against the oppressors, I only ask that you do good to yourself too. Insha Allah.

الله
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 11:41am
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

God loves you and He spilled His blood for you on the cross.

TG, how can you say that he is insulting you when you are insulting God Himself? How can you say that Abu is using foul language when it is you that is using the most despicable, provocative and outright disgusting language towards your God? To say "He spilled His blood"? How far can you go? In the name of Allah, He (Almighty) will not be pleased with you when you stand before Him. You must realise the seriousness of what you are saying. You must have been raised with this blasphemous doctrines and it's engraved in your thoughts and find it hard to reason without them. You must abandon them. Your intentions might be sincere but your foundation is all wrong. It's blinding you from what is true. You must give yourself a chance. You owe it to yourself. This is madness what you are saying. I saw you in the video standing supporting the people of Palestine doing good against the oppressors, I only ask that you do good to yourself too. Insha Allah.


Salaam Alaikum Rational,

It is disgusting and provocative and foul to not be thankful to God for what He has done for us. He has created us and sent us prophets, and willingly came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. He willingly lived among us, suffered for us and died, so by accepting what He has done for us we can be led to salvation. By denying these things, you are basically showing Him your middle finger and saying "I don't care what You did for me. I am not grateful to the sacrifice you made. None of it happened anyways".

If I am wrong and Islam is right, I am grateful to God and thanking Him for something He didn't do. If you are wrong and Christianity is right, you are in effect telling God you don't care about what He has done for you.

It is as offensive to me to hear people denying the crucifixion as it is to you to hear people affirming it. However, because God loves you I do not hate you and I will not demean you or insult you.

BTW I have not been raised with these 'blasphemous doctrines'... I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I was eighteen. Religion was not taken seriously in my family.

Furthermore, in my disagreement with what Islam teaches, I have never called either you or Abu Loren or any Muslims on this forum or Muhammad or God st**id, or deaf, blind and dumb or called you or your prophets devils or said I enjoy assaulting and insulting Muslims. I believe Islam does not show God for who He really is, and I believe there are some mistakes in the Quran and hadiths that show that Islam is not from God. I know that you see Christianity as false and that you believe the Bible and Christians blaspheme against God.

You are determined to preach Islam. I am determined to preach the Gospel.

We are both doing so without resorting to insults against each other. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I believe what is in the Bible to be true, and believe that much of your religion is false. I am being completely honest with you. I am doing so without calling you st**id or a fool or saying I enjoy insulting and assaulting "ignorant" people like yourself.

That is how people like Abu Loren behave. And even he admits it isn't right to do... though he falsely blames it on Christianity rather than taking responsibility for his own actions.


Edited by TG12345 - 20 January 2013 at 11:42am
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Rational
 
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by TG12345

It is disgusting and provocative and foul to not be thankful to God for what He has done for us. He has created us and sent us prophets, and willingly came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. He willingly lived among us, suffered for us and died, so by accepting what He has done for us we can be led to salvation. By denying these things, you are basically showing Him your middle finger and saying "I don't care what You did for me. I am not grateful to the sacrifice you made. None of it happened anyways".

Jesus is not God, he is a man. And God does not die. It's really that simple TG. You're believes portray shame and weakness to God and this is blasphemous. The guys you listen to changed the true message of Jesus (pbuh), they invented an idea. That's all they did. Who influenced them? Satan!  Who else but him? It's hard for you to swallow but it's true. It's fiction at best meant to separate you from the truth. That's all it is. You're people are proving this everytime they foolishly attempt to describe a representation of this mysterious trinity thing. One day God is like an egg, another day like a three-headed dog, or 3=1 because Integer Modulo 2, or or or. You guys are stuck with it. It's all about innovation for you. It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures. Subhan Allah. You've been praying to an idea since you were eighteen. Allah hears your prayers but how can he be pleased if you call Him Jesus. How can he be pleased when you're praying and saying things like "I thank you for spilling Your blood for me"? Unthinkable Astakfur Allah. This is how you thank your Creator, you Sustainer? You think He needs to kill himself for anything?

Originally posted by TG12345

If I am wrong and Islam is right, I am grateful to God and thanking Him for something He didn't do. If you are wrong and Christianity is right, you are in effect telling God you don't care about what He has done for you.

Not if, you are wrong. You are so wrong! You can't even begin to imagine how wrong you are. See I'd never say "if I'm wrong", because i know I'm not, because Islam gives me sufficient sound information to wash away any doubts, unlike you with your trinity. You're not thanking Him (The One God), your thanking an idea. And this is shirk, the only sin that Allah The Creator won't forgive. Fear what you are saying. Fear in Allah and give yourself a chance. You told me that you had doubts before in your faith. That was your heart telling you something. It's telling you it wants the truth, because it will only accept the truth, otherwise it won't be in peace. That's all your heart really wants, it wants peace. With Islam you get peace, everlasting peace and all your doubts are washed away.

Originally posted by TG12345

It is as offensive to me to hear people denying the crucifixion as it is to you to hear people affirming it.

That's why I have mixed opinions about debating with Christians on a regular basis. It can get very personal. But in the end it's worth it, given that both parties are willing to demonstrate in sensible reasoning, accept defeat when defeated and not deter from the topic being discussed. Otherwise it's time to move on.

Originally posted by TG12345

However, because God loves you I do not hate you and I will not demean you or insult you.

We're discussing sensitive topics here so expect a bit of something from time to time. But if I insulted you I never meant to.

Originally posted by TG12345

BTW I have not been raised with these 'blasphemous doctrines'... I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I was eighteen. Religion was not taken seriously in my family.

That's good. You should have given Islam a fair chance by reading the Quran. I'd advise you to focus on the Quran first before you start reading the hadiths. The hadiths are taken as extra supporting material to the Quran. You should read and finish the Quran first. It seems you haven't completed reading the Quran yet still, this didn't stop you from making claims about Islam. You keep making statements about Mohammad (pbuh) having some truths and having some falsehoods, and that he's not a prophet blah blah blah. You haven't read the whole Quran, so please be fair to muslims and finish reading the Quran.

Originally posted by TG12345

I believe Islam does not show God for who He really is, and I believe there are some mistakes in the Quran and hadiths that show that Islam is not from God.

Please finish reading the entire Quran and read the tafseer of all the versus to get a good understanding of the whole message. Otherwise don't make claims because you're proving that you don't care about what Islam has to teach, you just want to teach what you have.

Originally posted by TG12345

I believe what is in the Bible to be true, and believe that much of your religion is false.

This demonstrates how you make your claims while being ignorant in the Quran.

الله
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 3:18pm
Greetings Rational,

I shared this with someone else once before.  You see you view the crucifixion of Jesus as weakness.  I say exactly the opposite... it took great strength to do what Jesus did... Could you do what He did?  Turn the other cheek, not fight back, accept God's will to the very end?  If this is strength for you then surely it is strength for Jesus.
" Allah hears your prayers but how can he be pleased if you call Him Jesus."
I recommend a book you can read, called The Shack.  It's a fiction but illustrates the nature of God quite well.

"It seems you haven't completed reading the Quran yet still..."
It doesn't take alot of reading the qu'ran to see the problems with it.
and only the qu'ran is claimed to be the word of God, anything else is the word of man, trying to make things right with the qu'ran... trying to make clear what isn't.

mho

I will let you know if my opinion changes about the 'whole message' in the qu'ran.

I think islam has taught many good things but that it is also just as far astray.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 20 January 2013 at 3:20pm
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