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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL Post Reply Post New Topic
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 7:15am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle... perhaps the opener can explain his intent further...
 
OK, Nausheen, I think I finally understand what you believe.  To summarize:
 
- without defining what the word "Christian" means, Abu Loren has declared that every single Christian without exception is destined to spend eternity in hell
 
- you then came along and declared your belief that Abu Loren is correct in what he says about Christians and hell
 
- when I asked you for clarification on what Abu Loren believes, you stated that you're not really sure WHAT he believes, but whatever it is, you believe it to be true
 
You seem to have placed an incredible amount of faith in Abu Loren, since you have apparently attached your eternal fate to his. 
 
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that on the day of judgement Allah finds Abu Loren guilty of blasphemy for falsly claiming that every single Christian without exception is going to hell.  Even though you admit that you don't know exactly what Abu Loren believes, you have nevertheless declared Abu Loren's beliefs to be true.  So, if Allah decides that Abu Loren is guilty of blasphemy, then you admit that you too are guilty of blasphemy.  Correct?
 
I find it interesting that you have such a deep belief in Abu Loren that you are willing to tie your eternal fate to his.  Instead of putting your faith in Abu Loren as you seem to have done, I suggest it might be wiser of you to instead put your faith in Allah, but the decision is of course up to you. 
 
Reepicheep Reepicheep Reepicheep how underhanded you are! Like all the Christians here you like to twist everything around. Go back and read I mean READ what Nausheen has written. Christians lack that too, I'm afraid.
 
No wonder ALL Christians are snakes in the grass. Dispicable hypocrites.
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 9:07am
I just want to quote verses from Qur'an that in surah an Nisa ch 4 v 48 and in verse 116,Allah says that Allah if wants will forgive any sin except shirk(associating partners with God).for eg when any Muslim says merry Christmas he is committing shirk.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 10:41am
Originally posted by TG12345


Caringheart,

This verse in the Quran refers to Christians who lived before Muhammad and according to Islam's teachings followed the teachings of Jesus that the Quran claims He said and the Book it claims God gave Him.

There are contradictions in Islam, but this is not one of them.


TG,
"This verse in the Quran refers to Christians who lived before Muhammad"
Who says?  It does not say this in the qur'an.

I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion... from where do you get this conception?  It does not say in the quran, what you are saying... it does not say, 'Oh you Christians who came before I sent you Muhammad'. 

It says that the qualifying factor for belief is
"
Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"

God's Word... in His scriptures, is meant to be for all time.  It doesn't distinguish people of one time from another.  I'm not sure I am quite clear on what it is that you are saying.

Caringheart

note;
 the quranic scriptures differ

whoever believes in allah and his messenger... (we might ask, which messenger was actually meant if this was spoken by Muhammad) and the last day.

and surah 5 was one of the final few to be revealed.

Some things to think about.


Edited by Caringheart - 17 January 2013 at 10:56am
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Nausheen


Associating partners is a sin which Allah has declared in the Quran that it is unforgivable. ie if one dies upon this sin. If one repents, then there is no sin which is unpardonable in this life.

Again, technically speaking ... anyone who dies with the belief that there is a god besides God, then he has associated partners - a sin which will not be forgiven.

3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.


Greetings Nausheen,
"Associating partners is a sin"
We must be careful to discern what this means... associating partners with God.  Did Muhammad have a divine birth?  and yet you can not speak the name of allah without speaking also the name of Muhammad.  So be careful in your discerning.

"the belief that there is a god besides God"
Regarding this,
This is what is so hard to make others understand
"the belief that there is a god besides God"
We do not believe there is a god besides God.  We do not believe Jesus is a god.  Jesus is One with God... a part of Him... the part that God Himself chose to send to this earth, to His creation, in human form, in the hopes of reaching them.  God decides to 'do a new thing' in the hopes of reaching the hearts of His creation.  It seems a concept that is just too difficult for some to grasp, but not for those who believe in Jesus and in what Jesus said and revealed of the Father through Himself.

Salaam,
Caringheart
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Nausheen


If I make a guess, you are saying that Muslims do not believe in Christ.
According to christian belief, yes we deny - ie we deny his divinity. But according to a muslim belief we do not deny him. We believe (unlike Jews)that he was a prophet of Allah. That he was sent to re-establish the law of Moses. (peace and blessings upon them both).


I'm sorry, and I know this sounds contentious, but in all truth(and truly spoken in love), this is known in the financial world as 'hedging your bets'... attempting to cover yourself from both ends.
Wishing peace and blessings.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Nausheen


Quran 5:14 - 17

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.


These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.

The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ.


I have only just found this, shared by Nausheen... thank you Nausheen... which of course just adds further confusion to the issue, but at least now I understand the confusion. Smile

so it says;
""Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"
but it also says that those who believe in Jesus as the Son of God do not believe in allah...
there may be real truth in that...
allah is not our God may be the truth.


Edited by Caringheart - 17 January 2013 at 11:35am
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by TG12345

John 3:16-18<span ="text John-3-16"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">16 “For God so loved the world,i]">[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26127" ="text John-3-17"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26128" ="text John-3-18"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.</span></span>



Hello TG,

I thought you were gone for a while. Good to see you around. Even if its just a few quotes from the Bible.

Im not sure what you are trying to say, unless you make a statement alongside.

If I make a guess, you are saying that Muslims do not believe in Christ.
According to christian belief, yes we deny - ie we deny his divinity. But according to a muslim belief we do not deny him. We believe (unlike Jews)that he was a prophet of Allah. That he was sent to re-establish the law of Moses. (peace and blessings upon them both).



Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,

I was going to take a few days off and am cutting down a bit on the time I spend on here, but decided to answer some posts.

I should clarify what I meant by posting the the verse. For a Christian, believing in Christ means more than believing He was a prophet. It means accepting He was the Son of God and God in the flesh, and accepting what He did for us on the cross, as well as His teachings.

I would imagine it would be similar in Islam... Islam means submission to God if I am not mistaken and I would argue that as a Christian I submit (or do my best to, although at times I sin) to God but you would as a Muslim argue that in order to submit to God I need to believe Muhammad was His prophet, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and a variety of other things Islam teaches.

Believing in Jesus means something else to a Christian than to a Muslim. Submitting to God means something else to a Muslim than to a Christian.

Hope that clarified a bit what I meant. Take care.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle... perhaps the opener can explain his intent further... 
OK, Nausheen, I think I finally understand what you believe.  To summarize:
 

- without defining what the word "Christian" means, Abu Loren has declared that every single Christian without exception is destined to spend eternity in hell

 

- you then came along and declared your belief that Abu Loren is correct in what he says about Christians and hell

 

- when I asked you for clarification on what Abu Loren believes, you stated that you're not really sure WHAT he believes, but whatever it is, you believe it to be true

 

You seem to have placed an incredible amount of faith in Abu Loren, since you have apparently attached your eternal fate to his. 

 

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that on the day of judgement Allah finds Abu Loren guilty of blasphemy for falsly claiming that every single Christian without exception is going to hell.  Even though you admit that you don't know exactly what Abu Loren believes, you have nevertheless declared Abu Loren's beliefs to be true.  So, if Allah decides that Abu Loren is guilty of blasphemy, then you admit that you too are guilty of blasphemy.  Correct?

 

I find it interesting that you have such a deep belief in Abu Loren that you are willing to tie your eternal fate to his.  Instead of putting your faith in Abu Loren as you seem to have done, I suggest it might be wiser of you to instead put your faith in Allah, but the decision is of course up to you. 



Reepicheep,

Thank you for telling me what I believe.

Most people, with the exception of only one or two come here and tell us what we believe.

And mind you, I did not go to any christian site to ask what I believe, you guys have come here ... now if you can convince me about what you say, you win. As for now you have even lost my audience unless I like your tone in future.

peace.

Edited by Nausheen - 17 January 2013 at 11:23pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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