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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL Post Reply Post New Topic
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nausheen,Sorry if I am seeming argumentative tonight."Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners."Only according to your belief... according to the one you believe in... Muhammad.Why was there the need for the virgin birth?You see even what is said in your qu'ran is inaccurate, and incorrect..."And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you
say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?"Christians have never taken Mary to be anything other than human and blessed by God.  But some are confused by the great reverence for Mary, though I don't know why any muslim should be, since they revere her as well as blessed and holy.It is not good to make assumptions about understanding another person's faith.Salaam,Caringheart


Hello Caringheart,

I did not take this argument in any other light except from the reference point of the Quran. This is how the first message was challenged - using a verse from the Quran. Thus I am responding from the Quranic point of view.

Secondly, making images of Mother Mary in church - is it just emulating her? Are they not worshiping Mother Mary?
Honestly I did not know this. Thank you for sahring.
However I know that making images/idols is blasphemy in Islam.
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Reepicheep
 
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:23pm
Nausheen, you are not being very clear in what you are saying.
 
Consider the following.  There have been many, many, millions of Christians who died without ever hearing of Mohammad, the Koran, or Islam.  You are declaring, in the name of Allah, that every one of those Christians without exception is going to spend eternity in hell.  Correct?  And, if even one of those Christians makes it into heaven, then you agree that you will spend eternity in hell for making false claims on behalf of Allah.  Also correct?
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by TG12345

John 3:16-18<span ="text John-3-16"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">16 “For God so loved the world,i]">[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26127" ="text John-3-17"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26128" ="text John-3-18"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.</span></span>



Hello TG,

I thought you were gone for a while. Good to see you around. Even if its just a few quotes from the Bible.

Im not sure what you are trying to say, unless you make a statement alongside.

If I make a guess, you are saying that Muslims do not believe in Christ.
According to christian belief, yes we deny - ie we deny his divinity. But according to a muslim belief we do not deny him. We believe (unlike Jews)that he was a prophet of Allah. That he was sent to re-establish the law of Moses. (peace and blessings upon them both).

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen, you are not being very clear in what you are saying.
 

Consider the following.  There have been many, many, millions of Christians who died without ever hearing of Mohammad, the Koran, or Islam.  You are declaring, in the name of Allah, that every one of those Christians without exception is going to spend eternity in hell.  Correct?  And, if even one of those Christians makes it into heaven, then you agree that you will spend eternity in hell for making false claims on behalf of Allah.  Also correct?


Oh My God!

NOOOOOOO!!!

Im not saying the christians who died on the true faith of Jesus (alaihe salam) and the true message of the bible BEFORE islam was perfected are damned in hell.

Thank you for asking the clarification.

You see, revelations of the Quran took 23 years to complete. During this period, quran has made many arguments to the Jews and Christians - like a live dialogue with them. Before the declaration that islam is the only true religion, which appears in verse 3:19, all the Jews and Christains who dies on true faith, are saved - this is our belief.

Im sorry for the confusion :(
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Reepicheep
 
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:44pm
Nausheen wrote: Im not saying the christians who died on the true faith of Jesus (alaihe salam) and the true message of the bible BEFORE islam was perfected are damned in hell. 
 
You're still not being very clear.
 
I'm certain that sometime in the past day, somewhere in the world, people have died who believed that Jesus is God, and who had never heard of the koran, Mohammad, or Islam.  Are you declaring, in the name of Allah, that those people are going to spend eternity in hell?  
 
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


'and if one verse comes after another it abrogates the earlier'


This is a very lose definition of abrogation.

I posted a rather long article on what is meant by abrogation in the Quran under a topic dealing with the verse of the sword - not sure if you have seen it.

Also remember, just because two verses appear one after another, does not necessarily mean the one appearing earlier was revealed early. eg; some verses of chapter 5 were revealed before those of chapter 3.


Originally posted by Caringheart

Sorry if I dispensed with formalities.  I'm actually wanting to get off the computer. [IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" /></span>


No worries. Good night!

Edited by Nausheen - 16 January 2013 at 10:20pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen wrote: Im not saying the christians who died on the true faith of Jesus (alaihe salam) and the true message of the bible BEFORE islam was perfected are damned in hell.  
You're still not being very clear.

 

I'm certain that sometime in the past day, somewhere in the world, people have died who believed that Jesus is God, and who had never heard of the koran, Mohammad, or Islam.  Are you declaring, in the name of Allah, that those people are going to spend eternity in hell?   


Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle.
The answer is I don't know about those who were in shirk(polytheism) before the revelation of the Quran.
To clarify further, all christians and all jews, means all of these people to whom the message of Quran and news of Muhammad has reached. This is how I saw the first message on this string. [perhaps the opener can explain his intent further if it was meant otherwise]


I can give you my speculation on the subject.
It is said that Allah has sent 125000 prophets on earth, and there has never been a nation who has not received a prophet. Therefore, there has never been a nation who has not been told about the seriousness of tawheed (oneness of God). Allah has corrected polytheism amongst various generations and various nations through a series of prophets - and His message against it has always been very strict. He has also punished nations by natural calamities - ie those who rejected their prophets, like the A'ad and Thamud.
Thus it seems those who committed shirk, even though they had not heard of muhammad's (pbuh) message, have offended God and have earned hell fire.

As for the followership of muhammad (pbuh), only those are guilty of rejecting him who have done so AFTER his message was clearly delivered to them - this is understood by the example of the uncle of Khadija (ra) who was a christian monk. He was a true believer of Isa (pbuh), and he died before Islam was perfected. People like him are regarded as believers in Islam.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Reepicheep
 
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 7:09am
Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle... perhaps the opener can explain his intent further...
 
OK, Nausheen, I think I finally understand what you believe.  To summarize:
 
- without defining what the word "Christian" means, Abu Loren has declared that every single Christian without exception is destined to spend eternity in hell
 
- you then came along and declared your belief that Abu Loren is correct in what he says about Christians and hell
 
- when I asked you for clarification on what Abu Loren believes, you stated that you're not really sure WHAT he believes, but whatever it is, you believe it to be true
 
You seem to have placed an incredible amount of faith in Abu Loren, since you have apparently attached your eternal fate to his. 
 
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that on the day of judgement Allah finds Abu Loren guilty of blasphemy for falsly claiming that every single Christian without exception is going to hell.  Even though you admit that you don't know exactly what Abu Loren believes, you have nevertheless declared Abu Loren's beliefs to be true.  So, if Allah decides that Abu Loren is guilty of blasphemy, then you admit that you too are guilty of blasphemy.  Correct?
 
I find it interesting that you have such a deep belief in Abu Loren that you are willing to tie your eternal fate to his.  Instead of putting your faith in Abu Loren as you seem to have done, I suggest it might be wiser of you to instead put your faith in Allah, but the decision is of course up to you. 
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