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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL

 
Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!  Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.  In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.  Correct?



Hello Reepicheep,

The least requirement of a constructive debate is honesty.Without that one cannot lead to anywhere.

How can you says that anyone is claiming on his personal authority that associating partners is the gravest sin in the sight of Allah.

The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.

Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners. Now if there are christians who are free from this belief, their heart is indeed pure from this sin, and they have a wiggle room with Allah on the day of judgement.

Quran 5:116

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.


Greetings Nausheen,

Sorry if I am seeming argumentative tonight.

"Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners."

Only according to your belief... according to the one you believe in... Muhammad.
Why was there the need for the virgin birth?

You see even what is said in your qu'ran is inaccurate, and incorrect...

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?"

Christians have never taken Mary to be anything other than human and blessed by God.  But some are confused by the great reverence for Mary, though I don't know why any muslim should be, since they revere her as well as blessed and holy.

It is not good to make assumptions about understanding another person's faith.

Salaam,
Caringheart

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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Nausheen


These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.

The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ.


5:69 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

and here the qualifying factor for belief is
"
Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"

'and if one verse comes after another it abrogates the earlier'

The qu'ran is very conflicting with it's own self.

Sorry if I dispensed with formalities.  I'm actually wanting to get off the computer. Heart
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:07pm
John 3:16-18

16 “For God so loved the world,i]">[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Nausheen


These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.

The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ.


5:69 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

and here the qualifying factor for belief is
"
Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"

'and if one verse comes after another it abrogates the earlier'

The qu'ran is very conflicting with it's own self.

Sorry if I dispensed with formalities.  I'm actually wanting to get off the computer. Heart


Caringheart,

This verse in the Quran refers to Christians who lived before Muhammad and according to Islam's teachings followed the teachings of Jesus that the Quran claims He said and the Book it claims God gave Him.

There are contradictions in Islam, but this is not one of them.


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Reepicheep
 
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:16pm
Abu Loren wrote: I wrote what I wrote not on my own authority
 
Interesting.  So, it's not on your authority that you sentence all Christians to eternal damnation.  Under whose authority, then, do you sentence all Christians to hell???
 
Also, as Caringheart has pointed out, you seem to be adding words to the koran, in particular, the words in red below:
 
Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians
 
Under whose authority are you adding words to the koran?  Is it under your authority?  And, if you have the authority to make changes to this verse, then I assume you have the authority to make whatever changes you want to any and all passages in the koran?


Edited by Reepicheep - 16 January 2013 at 8:31pm
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:24pm
Nausheen wrote: The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.  Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners.
 
Nausheen, just to confirm what you are saying: you are declaring that every single Christian without exception who believes Jesus is God is going to spend eternity in hell.  Furthermore, you realize that, if Allah disagrees with you and admits even one person into heaven who believes Jesus is God, then you are guilty of blasphemy and you will spend eternity in hell. 
 
Correct?
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:38pm
Abu Loren wrote: diverting attention away from 1+1+1=3
 
I'm not diverting attention away, I'm agreeing with you.
 
In Integer Modulo 2 arithmetic, the following two statements are both true:
 
3 = 3
 
3 = 1
 
surely a beautiful mathematical way of illustrating the nature of the Triune God.
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen wrote: The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.  Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners.

 

Nausheen, just to confirm what you are saying: you are declaring that every single Christian without exception who believes Jesus is God is going to spend eternity in hell.  Furthermore, you realize that, if Allah disagrees with you and admits even one person into heaven who believes Jesus is God, then you are guilty of blasphemy and you will spend eternity in hell. 

 

Correct?


Associating partners is a sin which Allah has declared in the Quran that it is unforgivable. ie if one dies upon this sin. If one repents, then there is no sin which is unpardonable in this life.

As for where I will end, even after knowing till date that I do not associate partners - I don't know. This is what we are taugt. We are taught that we should not feel safe regarding our hereafter unless we have made it, so I don't know.

Again, technically speaking ... anyone who dies with the belief that there is a god besides God, then he has associated partners - a sin which will not be forgiven.

If you think God has made an exception with the Christians - which muslims are unaware of, then the Quran says Allah will judge in the matters where people have differences.

3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.



Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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