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Quote W.S. Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 3:49am
Originally posted by TG12345

I am reading the Quran. I am not finished it yet completely. God has already shown me errors and mistakes in it that prove to me that it cannot be His word, since He does not make mistakes or errors. He has also led me to see some obvious mistakes in some of the hadiths that are authentic. The major mistake and error of course is Islam's denial of Jesus' nature and death and resurrection, but there are others that make it extremely clear that Islam cannot be of God.
 
I'm asking out of curiosity: Besides the one you mention, what errors and mistakes in the Quran and the hadiths have you come across? Btw, I haven't yet read the entire Quran either.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 5:32am
Originally posted by TG12345

I am reading the Quran. I am not finished it yet completely. God has already shown me errors and mistakes in it that prove to me that it cannot be His word, since He does not make mistakes or errors. He has also led me to see some obvious mistakes in some of the hadiths that are authentic. The major mistake and error of course is Islam's denial of Jesus' nature and death and resurrection, but there are others that make it extremely clear that Islam cannot be of God.
 
Originally posted by W.S.

I'm asking out of curiosity: Besides the one you mention, what errors and mistakes in the Quran and the hadiths have you come across? Btw, I haven't yet read the entire Quran either.


Salaam Alaikum, W.S.,

I will post some links to some discussions I am having.

1.

 One example of an error would be Muhammad sentencing someone to be stoned to death for adultery and claiming that he made this judgement according to Allah's Book (Laws) which is a reference to the Quran, while in the Quran there is no verse, to my knowledge, that prescribes stoning for adultery.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24595&PN=2


2.

 Another example are Muhammad's statements that no toxin or magic can harm a person who has eaten 7 Ajwa dates first thing in the morning, and that those who eat them will not be harmed by any poison. While dates have some health benefits, it is not true that no toxin can harm someone who has had 7 of them in the AM. A bite from a rattlesnake or ingestion of botulism would harm, if not kill, anyone- regardless of what he or she ate in the morning.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=4
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24596


3.

Another example would be of Muhammad promising a reward for Christians who used to believe in an earlier book (Injil) and then believed in the Quran. To my knowledge, there is no historical evidence of a book like the Injil, which God allegedly revealed to Jesus, ever existing. To the best of my knowledge, there is also no historical evidence outside the Quran and hadiths, of Christians or other non-Muslims believing in the existence of such a text. Most Muslims I speak to claim that the Scriptures that Christians have are corrupted and the book revealed to Jesus is "lost", yet Muhammad promised a reward for Christians who used to believe in an earlier book, and then believed in the Quran. How could they have believed in something that was lost?

The Quran states itself that those who follow Muhammad, whom they will find written with them in the Torah and Injil will be successful... how could that be possible if the original books are not around anymore and all we have are corruptions?

Also, where in the Torah and Injil that Christians during Muhammad's time allegedly had, is there any mention of him?

7:157

Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591

4.

 Muhammad stated that before him, every prophet was sent to his nation only, but he had been sent to all mankind.

(1) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  
(Book #7, Hadith #331)
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=%22nation+only%22&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

It is pretty clear that Moses was an Israelite, and Pharaoh an Egyptian. I even had Abu Loren confirm this in our discussion here:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24576

However, as you probably know, according to the Quran God sent Moses to the Pharaoh to warn him and invite him to follow God.

A.13 The Chapter of An-Nazi‘at (The Snatchers) (79.15-25)

Has the story of Moses reached you (79.15)? When his Lord called him in the holy valley of Tuwa (79.16): “Go to Pharaoh; he has transgressed (79.17). Say to him: ‘Do you have the will to purify yourself (79.18) and to let me guide you to your Lord so that you become pious to Him’” (79.19)? He showed him the great sign (79.20) but he denied [it] and disobeyed (79.21). Then he went to plan (79.22) so he gathered and proclaimed (79.23), saying: “I am your Lord supreme” (79.24). So Allah seized him with the punishment of the hereafter and this world (79.25).

http://www.quranicstudies.com/prophet-moses/prophet-moses-in-the-quran/

Given that Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian, Muhammad's statement that every prohet used to be sent to his nation only is not true.

 
5.


 The Quran teaches that milk is pure and palatable to those who drink it. While milk is healthy and good for most people, it is very unpalable and can be deadly for others.

16:66

And indeed, for you in grazing livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from what is in their bellies - between excretion and blood - pure milk, palatable to drinkers.

http://quran.com/16/66

Milk allergies are rare, but there are quite a few people in the world who have them. A person with a milk allergy who would have a sip of this "palatable" drink, will start wheezing and vomiting, and may have anaphylaxis which can kill him or her.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/milk-allergy/DS01008


Of course, there was no way for a human being living in the 7th century to know about milk allergies. But God would. Would He tell humanity that milk is pleasant to its drinkers if some people get extremely sick and even die because of it?

It would either indicate that He was unaware of such conditions, or that He doesn't care about the occasional innocent and unsuspecting person dying because of drinking something He said is pleasant to those who ingest it. I don't believe that God is ignorant or malicious like that, do you?


I have other examples but because of time constraints will leave it here for now. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Take care and God bless. May He guide us all to the Truth.




Edited by TG12345 - 14 January 2013 at 5:34am
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 7:16am
Originally posted by TG12345


Alaikum Salaam. Jesus will definitely come again, and we will definitely face Judgement. Satan is indeed a liar and deceiver, and he is leading most of humanity to an eternal hell.

God did not set a seal in my heart against coming to Him, He does not do such things. My faith teaches that He loves humanity and those who want to come to Him He guides to Him. I hope and pray that He will guide you to Him before it is too late.

I have posted frequently in this forum, and have pointed out some obvious mistakes in your scriptures, mistakes that even a non-Christian would notice. I have so far not have had been presented with any evidence that makes up for the contradictions and errors in some of the things Muhammad said. This is only in reference to the hadiths, I haven't yet even started too much on the Quran.

I am involved in a long running debate with a Muslim on this forum and also post on a Christian forum (as well as having a life outside of the internet), so I am not posting as much as I could be.


If you want to present me with evidence you think exists for your faith being true and my faith being wrong, feel free to do so. So far your words and the words of other well-meaning Muslims have only helped convince me of the opposite.

Allah Akhbar. Blessed be the Name of the Lord.
 
I'm sorry I can't help you any further buddy because each person is responsible for his own salvation and I cannot bear your sins nor you mine.
 
I agree with you that there are contradictions in the Hadiths as it was written down by men. What you tried to point out of the contradictions we have rebutted you on every point. There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.
 
I feel sorry for you that you can't see the truth that is contained therein. Ask God to help you and guide you to the Truth. If you ask Him sincerely may be He will open your eyes and stop your existence in this fantasy world.


Edited by Abu Loren - 14 January 2013 at 7:16am
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.
 

Of course he could if he had heard the Psalms, and I am quite sure that he must have been exposed to them in all his travels.
and poetry was the arabic way.  Anyone will tell you about the poetic cadences of the arabian language that make it so lovely to listen to.



Edited by Caringheart - 14 January 2013 at 1:32pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by TG12345


Alaikum Salaam. Jesus will definitely come again, and we will definitely face Judgement. Satan is indeed a liar and deceiver, and he is leading most of humanity to an eternal hell.

God did not set a seal in my heart against coming to Him, He does not do such things. My faith teaches that He loves humanity and those who want to come to Him He guides to Him. I hope and pray that He will guide you to Him before it is too late.

I have posted frequently in this forum, and have pointed out some obvious mistakes in your scriptures, mistakes that even a non-Christian would notice. I have so far not have had been presented with any evidence that makes up for the contradictions and errors in some of the things Muhammad said. This is only in reference to the hadiths, I haven't yet even started too much on the Quran.

I am involved in a long running debate with a Muslim on this forum and also post on a Christian forum (as well as having a life outside of the internet), so I am not posting as much as I could be.


If you want to present me with evidence you think exists for your faith being true and my faith being wrong, feel free to do so. So far your words and the words of other well-meaning Muslims have only helped convince me of the opposite.

Allah Akhbar. Blessed be the Name of the Lord.
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

I'm sorry I can't help you any further buddy because each person is responsible for his own salvation and I cannot bear your sins nor you mine.
 
I agree with you that there are contradictions in the Hadiths as it was written down by men. What you tried to point out of the contradictions we have rebutted you on every point. There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.
 
I feel sorry for you that you can't see the truth that is contained therein. Ask God to help you and guide you to the Truth. If you ask Him sincerely may be He will open your eyes and stop your existence in this fantasy world.


Salaam Alaikum Abu Loren,

With all due respect, I did not come to look for help, I came to discuss and debate my faith and yours. I came to be a witness to the Gospel and to allow you and other Muslims witness Islam to me.

I am very open about my faith, and don't come here to pretend I am here to merely "learn", I am here to debate and discuss and witness and be witnessed to. In the process of this, there is learning involved on both our parts.

I am really not trying to be insulting to you, but you haven't provided rebuttals to my points.

1. You haven't managed to prove that Muhammad was right that 7 dates in the morning would cause that no toxins could harm a person.

2. You haven't managed to prove that there ever was the existence of a book called the Injil, a book that Christians allegedly believed in before they believed the Quran.

3. You haven't shown me a verse from the Quran that calls on adulterers to be stoned to death, even though Muhammad claimed he judged the shepherd's son and the woman who committed adultery with him on the basis of the Quran.

4. You haven't explained how is it possible that allegedly God told humanity that milk is pleasant for those who drink it, even though there are people with milk allergies who this pure drink literally kills. (refer to point made above to W.S.)

5. You haven't explained how it is possible that before Muhammad the prophets were all sent to their nation only, but simultaneously Moses, who we agree was an Israelite and not Egyptian, was sent to Pharaoh, who was an Egyptian. (refer to point above made by W.S.)


You agree that there are contradictions in the hadiths, and claim this is because they were written by men. The hadiths I refer to for the most part all come from Muslim and Bukhari.

Islamic scholars today say they are some of the most authentic ones.

By all indication, and until you manage to prove otherwise, they are an accurate record of the words of Muhammad.


 Fatwa No : 6956

The judging of Hadeeths must conform to the rules and fundamentals of the science of Hadeeth

  Fatwa Date : Rabee' Al-Awwal 15, 1433 / 8-2-2012

Question

I had a dispute with a friend over his claim that most Hadeeths are inauthentic since the narrators were not contemporaries of the Prophet . He also alleges that Jihaad is the sixth pillar of Islam, because the Quran speaks about it more than any other thing.

In addition, he believes that the emergence of different Islamic groups and the disagreements among scholars prove that almost all Hadeeths are distorted. 

 

Please, explain to me the correct opinion. May Allaah reward you.

Answer

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad , is His Slave and Messenger.

 

Hadeeths of the Prophet , are of different grades, including: Saheeh (Authentic), Hasan (Sound), Dha‘eef (weak) and Mawdhoo' (fabricated). The scholars of Hadeeth have studied and defined these different grades very well.

Muslims accept all that was narrated in Saheeh Al-Bukhaari and Saheeh Muslim and scholars consider that the Hadeeths narrated by both Al-Bukhaari and Muslim %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20have%20%20mercy%20%20upon%20%20them are the most authentic Hadeeths, then the Hadeeths narrated by Al-Bukhaari alone, then the Hadeeths narrated by Muslim alone.

The authenticity of the Hadeeths narrated in Saheeh Al-Bukhaari are unarguable, to the extent that Al-Haafith Abu Nasr As-Sijizi said that Islamic jurists and other scholars agreed that, if a man made an oath in the name of Allaah that all Hadeeths mentioned in Saheeh Al-Bukhaari were unarguably said by the Messenger of Allaah , then his oath is valid and does an not need expiation.

As for the allegation concerning Jihaad, it does not even deserve consideration. The five pillars of Islam are the most important acts of worship in Islam, as stated in a Hadeeth narrated by Al-Bukhaari and Muslim. However, this does not mean that duties and obligations are confined to these five pillars, but Jihaad, encouraging good and forbidding evil, and dutifulness to parents are all established Islamic obligations. Jihaad is the highest peak of Islam, as described in the Hadeeth narrated by At-Tirmithi and Ibn Maajah %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20have%20%20mercy%20%20upon%20%20them.

As for the claim that the majority of Hadeeths are fabricated, it is a groundless allegation since the vast majority of Hadeeths that are narrated in the well-known books of Hadeeth are authentic.  These well-known books of Hadeeth include:

1-        Saheeh Al-Bukhaari

2-        Saheeh Muslim

3-        Sunan At-Tirmithi

4-        Sunan An-Nasaa'i

5-        Sunan Abu-Daawood

6-        Sunan Ibn Maajah

7-        Musnad  of Imaam Ahmad

8-        Muwatta’ of Imaam Maalik 

9-        Saheeh Ibn Khuzaymah

10 - Saheeh Ibn Hibbaan

Moreover, the existence of deviated groups does not prove that the Hadeeths are distorted. On the contrary, attacking the Sunnah, rejecting and casting doubts upon it, and interpreting it in a way that contradicts its obvious meaning are the causes behind such a deviation.

Depending only on the Quran and rejecting most of the Sunnah is one of the opinions that formed the foundation of some deviated groups, such as the Jahmiyyah, the Mu‘tazilah, the Qur’aaniyyoon and others.

We advise you to know that the science of Hadeeth has rules and basics and no one has the right to judge a Hadeeth as Saheeh or Dha‘eef depending on mere imagination or doubts in the mind. Rather, the chain of narrators and the text of the Hadeeth or the tradition should be considered carefully in light of the rules and regulations set by the Islamic scholars throughout the centuries.

We also advise this person to be careful not to become an opponent of the Prophet , by rejecting his Sunnah. He should know that Allaah The Exalted has undertaken the responsibility of preserving His religion and His book (the Quran) and this would be impossible if not accompanied by the preservation of the Sunnah of His Messenger , which is a revelation like the Quran. Allaah The Almighty Says (what means):

{Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.} [Quran 53:3,4]

{And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them.} [Quran 16:44]

Allaah Knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=6956


It is obvious that 7 dates in the AM will not protect a person against all toxins.

It is also evident that there is no verse in the Quran that commands adulterers to be stoned to death, and that when Muhammad had the woman stoned to death he was not passing this judgement based on the Quran but on what he must have believed God revealed to him outside of it.

It is also true that Muhammad was not correct when he said that before him all prophets were sent to their nation only... since as we both know Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian... yet God sent Moses to the Pharaoh as well as his own people.

The allegation that there was a book given to Jesus and that Christians in the time of Muhammad believed in it before they believed in the Quran cannot be proven.

It is very obvious from the hadiths, that Muhammad said these things... and it is very obvious that on most if not all of these points, he was wrong.


Muhammad was a very intelligent person, and I believe he meant well in wanting to follow God. Unlike your abusive and insulting terminology you use to describe Paul, I do not call him a "devil" and I do not call him a "pedophile" or "terrorist" like some misguided and bigoted 'christians' do.


It is not for me to judge Muhammad, that is God's job. He will also judge you, and judge me, and everyone on and off this forum.


I have and I will always continue to ask God for guidance. I have prayed for His guidance as I began to read the Quran and study the hadiths. He has answered my prayers... and shown me the errors that are contained in it.

I am not the one who lives in a 'fantasy world', my friend.


I hope to continue this discussion with you, and I will be praying for you and all my other Muslim and non-Christian friends that you come to know Jesus Christ.

May God guide us all to Him.



Edited by TG12345 - 14 January 2013 at 6:23pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.
 

Of course he could if he had heard the Psalms, and I am quite sure that he must have been exposed to them in all his travels.
and poetry was the arabic way.  Anyone will tell you about the poetic cadences of the arabian language that make it so lovely to listen to.



????

Sorry, Caringheart, not trying to rude sister but what evidence is there that Muhammad got his poetry from the Psalms? The Arabic language is beautiful as is the Hebrew language used in the Psalms, but I think it's false to suggest that the Quran got its language from them. We have no evidence of that whatsoever.

The Quran contains many truths and it was written by someone who was very intelligent and meant well, and I believe who got some of his knowledge from the supernatural.

It also contains things that are not true, and it tells people to refer to the teachings of Muhammad, which are contained in the hadiths. The Quran claims that whoever obeys Muhammad has obeyed Allah, and that people must accept whatever he says to accept and reject whatever he says to reject.

The Quran teaches that when Muhammad spoke he did not speak from his own inclination but it was a revelation.

53:2-6

Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,
Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,
Taught to him by one intense in strength -
One of soundness.

Some of the things which Muhammad said (which are recorded in the hadiths) are true and beautiful but also there are others that are demonstrably and clearly false. This is one of the many reasons I do not believe the Quran was directly given to him from God.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.
 

Of course he could if he had heard the Psalms, and I am quite sure that he must have been exposed to them in all his travels.
and poetry was the arabic way.  Anyone will tell you about the poetic cadences of the arabian language that make it so lovely to listen to.

 
I think I called you a demon once?....
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by TG12345

   

It is obvious that 7 dates in the AM will not protect a person against all toxins.

It is also evident that there is no verse in the Quran that commands adulterers to be stoned to death, and that when Muhammad had the woman stoned to death he was not passing this judgement based on the Quran but on what he must have believed God revealed to him outside of it.

It is also true that Muhammad was not correct when he said that before him all prophets were sent to their nation only... since as we both know Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian... yet God sent Moses to the Pharaoh as well as his own people.

The allegation that there was a book given to Jesus and that Christians in the time of Muhammad believed in it before they believed in the Quran cannot be proven.

It is very obvious from the hadiths, that Muhammad said these things... and it is very obvious that on most if not all of these points, he was wrong.


Muhammad was a very intelligent person, and I believe he meant well in wanting to follow God. Unlike your abusive and insulting terminology you use to describe Paul, I do not call him a "devil" and I do not call him a "pedophile" or "terrorist" like some misguided and bigoted 'christians' do.


It is not for me to judge Muhammad, that is God's job. He will also judge you, and judge me, and everyone on and off this forum.


I have and I will always continue to ask God for guidance. I have prayed for His guidance as I began to read the Quran and study the hadiths. He has answered my prayers... and shown me the errors that are contained in it.

I am not the one who lives in a 'fantasy world', my friend.


I hope to continue this discussion with you, and I will be praying for you and all my other Muslim and non-Christian friends that you come to know Jesus Christ.

May God guide us all to Him.

Well good luck looking for 'evidence' but believing in God is through faith.
 
By the way, you can't compare Paul to Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because Paul was a charlatan and Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was a Prophet of God Almighty.
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