IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is

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nospam001
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 12:17am

I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game.

Judging from the lack of any serious response, I have to conclude that my questions have been overtaken by other topics, or simply misunderstood. It's not as though there is anything new or unfamiliar about their source, so it follows that a relevant tafsir must exist, somewhere out there.

To repeat: For some people (including me) 'justice' is very much about whether the punishment fits the crime, regardless of who is in charge. Rational seems to be saying we are naive, and that true justice is defined as whatever pleases the boss. In this respect he is not alone.

Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is.

- Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom

I'm sure you'd all laugh your socks off supposing I said "blue is the colour of something that is blue". But, if Keller is correct, then it is equally meaningless to claim that "Allah is just".

Does that reflect how most Muslims feel about justice, generally?

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 2:16am

Originally posted by nospam001

I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game.

Mr. Spammer I think I've told you once before that you are a waste of space. You do not have guidnace nor understanding nor knowledge. What's sad about you is that we give you examples but you are not willing to take it on board because you are happy being an agnositic whatever that means. I've also said before that you try to act clever but you are only being clever to yourself.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 8:26am

Greetings nospam,

I tried reading that article but is it just me...
it had me feeling like I was being talked around in circles.
Maybe it is just too early in the day for me... Ermm

Caringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Rational

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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 6:04pm

Assalamo alaikom, goday mate :)

Originally posted by nospam001

I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game.

I am serious when I use plasticine figures in place of people. I identify both as being a creation. They are both created and owned by a creator. It's irrelevant what attributes or qualities they have. Let's assume that the figures had immortal souls. Would this reduce the authority that their creator has over them? No, because he gave them those immortal souls. They exist because of him. He owns them. They don't own themselves. If they did, they would have control over the beginning and end of their existence. So whether they have immortal souls or not, this doesn't influence the ownership of the creator over their destiny.

I think it also takes faith to accept that "Allah is just". This is why it's easy for me, a believer, to decide on this issue. Because I submit to His will. I therefore obey and accept His will, whatever it may be, regardless of what I think. Because I recognise Him to be the Creator, the Sustainer, the Judge, the Arbitrator, the Wise, the Utterly Just. And so I wouldn't dare question Him on "whether the punishment fits the crime". On the other hand, a non believer doesn't submit to Him and so finds it wrong, or not just.

God instructed Ibraheem (as) to sacrifice his son. Was this just? Ibraheem was confused, nevertheless he was willing to obey because he submits to the will of God. And just before he carried out this task, he heard a voice telling him not to worry, and that he had passed a difficult test. God teaches us a lesson that He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) has complete authority over us, regardless of what we think.

Originally posted by nospam001

Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is.

- Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom

That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link.

الله

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nospam001
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 12:33am

Originally posted by Rational

That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link.

Hi Rational. My pleasure. It's a very impressive bit of writing, yes? And thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I think it also takes faith to accept that "Allah is just". This is why it's easy for me, a believer, to decide on this issue. Because I submit to His will. I therefore obey and accept His will, whatever it may be, regardless of what I think. Because I recognise Him to be the Creator, the Sustainer, the Judge, the Arbitrator, the Wise, the Utterly Just. And so I wouldn't dare question Him on "whether the punishment fits the crime". On the other hand, a non believer doesn't submit to Him and so finds it wrong, or not just.

I'm glad to see that you have no problem understanding why a non-believer 'finds it wrong, or not just'. That's good enough for me. It reinforces my hunch that an ancient tafsir would have been sure to discuss this very specific quibble; i.e. I'm not wasting my time hoping to find one eventually.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Rational

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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 11:16am

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures

Mohammad (pbuh) has 1.57 billion followers and increasing.

How many do you have?

Edited by Rational - 07 February 2013 at 11:26am

الله

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Caringheart

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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 11:51am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures

Mohammad (pbuh) has 1.57 billion followers and increasing.

How many do you have?

¹³Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

¹⁴Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

¹⁵Beware of false prophets...
(the words of Jesus)

I do not think we are measured in numbers of followers of man's religion.
I am one person and I do not have followers, I am a follower... of God and His laws... of what Jesus taught.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 08 February 2013 at 9:22am

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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nospam001
Male Agnostic
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Joined: 02 October 2012
Location: Australia
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Posts: 150

Posted: 08 February 2013 at 12:24am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by nospam001

Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is.

- Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom

That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link.

I accept that for Muslims the comforting notion of human justice is totally meaningless in this special context. Do you think maybe something has been lost in translation? In the Arabic text, was there a different word for Allah(), one which always gets mistranslated into English as plain old "just"?

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Topic: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is
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Author	Message
nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 06 February 2013 at 12:17am
	I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game. Judging from the lack of any serious response, I have to conclude that my questions have been overtaken by other topics, or simply misunderstood. It's not as though there is anything new or unfamiliar about their source, so it follows that a relevant tafsir must exist, somewhere out there. To repeat: For some people (including me) 'justice' is very much about whether the punishment fits the crime, regardless of who is in charge. Rational seems to be saying we are naive, and that true justice is defined as whatever pleases the boss. In this respect he is not alone. Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is. - Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom I'm sure you'd all laugh your socks off supposing I said "blue is the colour of something that is blue". But, if Keller is correct, then it is equally meaningless to claim that "Allah is just". Does that reflect how most Muslims feel about justice, generally?
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 06 February 2013 at 2:16am
	*Originally posted by nospam001* I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game. Judging from the lack of any serious response, I have to conclude that my questions have been overtaken by other topics, or simply misunderstood. It's not as though there is anything new or unfamiliar about their source, so it follows that a relevant tafsir must exist, somewhere out there. Mr. Spammer I think I've told you once before that you are a waste of space. You do not have guidnace nor understanding nor knowledge. What's sad about you is that we give you examples but you are not willing to take it on board because you are happy being an agnositic whatever that means. I've also said before that you try to act clever but you are only being clever to yourself.
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 06 February 2013 at 8:26am
	Greetings nospam, I tried reading that article but is it just me... it had me feeling like I was being talked around in circles. Maybe it is just too early in the day for me... Caringheart
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
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Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 06 February 2013 at 6:04pm
	Assalamo alaikom, goday mate :) *Originally posted by nospam001* I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game. I am serious when I use plasticine figures in place of people. I identify both as being a creation. They are both created and owned by a creator. It's irrelevant what attributes or qualities they have. Let's assume that the figures had immortal souls. Would this reduce the authority that their creator has over them? No, because he gave them those immortal souls. They exist because of him. He owns them. They don't own themselves. If they did, they would have control over the beginning and end of their existence. So whether they have immortal souls or not, this doesn't influence the ownership of the creator over their destiny. I think it also takes faith to accept that "Allah is just". This is why it's easy for me, a believer, to decide on this issue. Because I submit to His will. I therefore obey and accept His will, whatever it may be, regardless of what I think. Because I recognise Him to be the Creator, the Sustainer, the Judge, the Arbitrator, the Wise, the Utterly Just. And so I wouldn't dare question Him on "whether the punishment fits the crime". On the other hand, a non believer doesn't submit to Him and so finds it wrong, or not just. God instructed Ibraheem (as) to sacrifice his son. Was this just? Ibraheem was confused, nevertheless he was willing to obey because he submits to the will of God. And just before he carried out this task, he heard a voice telling him not to worry, and that he had passed a difficult test. God teaches us a lesson that He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) has complete authority over us, regardless of what we think. *Originally posted by nospam001* Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is. - Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link.
	الله
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 07 February 2013 at 12:33am
	*Originally posted by Rational* That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link. Hi Rational. My pleasure. It's a very impressive bit of writing, yes? And thanks for your thoughtful reply. I think it also takes faith to accept that "Allah is just". This is why it's easy for me, a believer, to decide on this issue. Because I submit to His will. I therefore obey and accept His will, whatever it may be, regardless of what I think. Because I recognise Him to be the Creator, the Sustainer, the Judge, the Arbitrator, the Wise, the Utterly Just. And so I wouldn't dare question Him on "whether the punishment fits the crime". On the other hand, a non believer doesn't submit to Him and so finds it wrong, or not just. I'm glad to see that you have no problem understanding why a non-believer 'finds it wrong, or not just'. That's good enough for me. It reinforces my hunch that an ancient tafsir would have been sure to discuss this very specific quibble; i.e. I'm not wasting my time hoping to find one eventually.
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 07 February 2013 at 11:16am
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures Mohammad (pbuh) has 1.57 billion followers and increasing. How many do you have? Edited by Rational - 07 February 2013 at 11:26am
	الله
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 07 February 2013 at 11:51am
	*Originally posted by Rational* *Originally posted by Caringheart* I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures Mohammad (pbuh) has 1.57 billion followers and increasing. How many do you have? ¹³Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: ¹⁴Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. ¹⁵Beware of false prophets... (the words of Jesus) I do not think we are measured in numbers of followers of man's religion. I am one person and I do not have followers, I am a follower... of God and His laws... of what Jesus taught. Salaam, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 08 February 2013 at 9:22am
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 08 February 2013 at 12:24am
	*Originally posted by Rational* *Originally posted by nospam001* Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is. - Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link. I accept that for Muslims the comforting notion of human justice is totally meaningless in this special context. Do you think maybe something has been lost in translation? In the Arabic text, was there a different word for Allah(), one which always gets mistranslated into English as plain old "just"?
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged