IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is

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nospam001
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Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:00am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

They've probably taken away your privilege because you are a waste of space and a duck.

Ah... I always wondered why my feet looked like that.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Rational

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Posted: 24 January 2013 at 4:55am

Originally posted by nospam001

I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified.

1 Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures?
2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'?
3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul?
4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures?
5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts?
6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong?

What I think depends very much on these details.

[EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]

It's not for us to ask him anything. The plasticine is his and so he can do whatever he wishes with it. He can choose to give whatever purpose to a figure. He can choose to have a figure with no purpose at all. He can choose to make a figure with no arms infinitly or temporarily. He can then choose to give the same figure arms and wings. The plasticine is his, he's the one working with it, he knows the purpose, we can only claim and assume we know. He qualifies to dictate over the plasticine in any way he chooses.

Do you disagree?

[I can post directly]

Edited by Rational - 24 January 2013 at 6:14am

الله

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nospam001
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Posted: 25 January 2013 at 12:52am

Originally posted by Rational

It's not for us to ask him anything. The plasticine is his and so he can do whatever he wishes with it. He can choose to give whatever purpose to a figure. He can choose to have a figure with no purpose at all. He can choose to make a figure with no arms infinitly or temporarily. He can then choose to give the same figure arms and wings. The plasticine is his, he's the one working with it, he knows the purpose, we can only claim and assume we know. He qualifies to dictate over the plasticine in any way he chooses.

I agree that it would be absurd for me to ask our hypothetical protagonist to explain himself, given that you are the sole author of - and authority on - this thought experiment. And yes, people do act arbitrarily and without reason, sometimes with a lack of empathy that can be truly chilling. Especially young children.

By substituting lifeless objects in place of sentient beings you seem to imply that questions 3 & 4 above are both irrelevant. To me, they make a huge difference.

Maybe it is naive for me to think that 'justice' has something to do with whether the punishment fits the crime. I am guessing that many readers would agree with you that - just as we see in the grubby world of realpolitik - it's really all about who is in charge, and who doles out the punishment. As long as they're one and the the same, then my notion of 'justice' is rendered totally meaningless or, at best, an airy-fairy construct for philosophers and dreamers.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Robin Hood
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Posted: 25 January 2013 at 6:38pm

It seems some Muslims don‘t know that the Qur‘an talks a lot about intellect.

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nospam001
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Location: Australia
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Posted: 29 January 2013 at 12:36am

"Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?"

"Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?"

"Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?"

Are these topics a fair cross-section of what gets everyone fired up in interfaith forums? Do they help convince anyone who isn't already convinced? Where might I find a less dogmatic (and therefore more persuasive) presentation of the case for God/Allah?

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 7:07pm

Originally posted by nospam001

"Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?"

"Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?"

"Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?"

Mr. Spammer these questions are very fundamental in establishing who Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was and who God is. If one believes that the Trinity makes sense and Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) said it's OK to eat pigs and that he was crucified then this conflicts with the Islmaic belief and one would label Prophet Muhammad (Salallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) as a false prophet. On the other side of the coin is, of course the opposite, which is that the Holy Qur'an is the Words of God and Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is the Prophet and Messenger of God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. So these crucially makes a difference to people's salvation.

You've been given intellect by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala but you choose to not to use it and sometimes your intellect is more lacking than a new born baby (not that they lack intellect).

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Webber

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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 9:32pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by nospam001

"Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?"

Which trinity are you talking about? Many things were done in threes and could be considered a trinity situation. Trinity of man may interest you.

"Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?"

There weren't any pigs around at the time so He settled on camels.

"Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?"

Not sure there was an actual beam, but who knows. There was a Roman soldier and a lot of witnesses who said something happened.

I must be in a low intulechewal spasm as I totally missed what it is you are looking for. Was I wrong to think you may be serious?

[quote] You've been given intellect by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala but you choose to not to use it and sometimes your intellect is more lacking than a new born baby (not that they lack intellect).

Knowledge without maturity is dangerous.

I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

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Caringheart

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Posted: 05 February 2013 at 10:27am

Originally posted by nospam001

And if He places a veil on my heart and then damns me for not believing, that's entirely His choice. Clearly there has to be some kind of cosmic justice in that which, being veiled, I am just too blind to see.

A real 'Catch-22'. Maybe that's why no-one on this forum has actually come forward and said it.

I do keep bringing it up, I know. You could say it's my 'thing'. Sorry if you find it boring.

Greetings nospam,

I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures;

2 Cor 4:2-4,18 (Phi) ... If our gospel is "veiled", the veil must be in the minds of those who are spiritually dying. The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe, and prevents the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, the image of God, from shining on them... For we are looking all the time not at the visible things but at the invisible. The visible things are transitory: it is the invisible things that are permanent.

The god of this world

it is the 'god of this world', satan, that has blinded the eyes of the creation, because it is satan that seeks for God's creation to destroy itself.

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Topic: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is
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Author	Message
nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:00am
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* They've probably taken away your privilege because you are a waste of space and a duck. Ah... I always wondered why my feet looked like that.
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 24 January 2013 at 4:55am
	*Originally posted by nospam001* I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified. 1 Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures? 2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'? 3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul? 4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures? 5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts? 6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong? What I think depends very much on these details. [EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?] It's not for us to ask him anything. The plasticine is his and so he can do whatever he wishes with it. He can choose to give whatever purpose to a figure. He can choose to have a figure with no purpose at all. He can choose to make a figure with no arms infinitly or temporarily. He can then choose to give the same figure arms and wings. The plasticine is his, he's the one working with it, he knows the purpose, we can only claim and assume we know. He qualifies to dictate over the plasticine in any way he chooses. Do you disagree? [I can post directly] Edited by Rational - 24 January 2013 at 6:14am
	الله
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 25 January 2013 at 12:52am
	*Originally posted by Rational* It's not for us to ask him anything. The plasticine is his and so he can do whatever he wishes with it. He can choose to give whatever purpose to a figure. He can choose to have a figure with no purpose at all. He can choose to make a figure with no arms infinitly or temporarily. He can then choose to give the same figure arms and wings. The plasticine is his, he's the one working with it, he knows the purpose, we can only claim and assume we know. He qualifies to dictate over the plasticine in any way he chooses. I agree that it would be absurd for me to ask our hypothetical protagonist to explain himself, given that you are the sole author of - and authority on - this thought experiment. And yes, people do act arbitrarily and without reason, sometimes with a lack of empathy that can be truly chilling. Especially young children. By substituting lifeless objects in place of sentient beings you seem to imply that questions 3 & 4 above are both irrelevant. To me, they make a huge difference. Maybe it is naive for me to think that 'justice' has something to do with whether the punishment fits the crime. I am guessing that many readers would agree with you that - just as we see in the grubby world of realpolitik - it's really all about who is in charge, and who doles out the punishment. As long as they're one and the the same, then my notion of 'justice' is rendered totally meaningless or, at best, an airy-fairy construct for philosophers and dreamers.
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

Robin Hood Male Islam Starter. Joined: 08 January 2013 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1	Posted: 25 January 2013 at 6:38pm
	It seems some Muslims don‘t know that the Qur‘an talks a lot about intellect.
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 29 January 2013 at 12:36am
	"Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?" "Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?" "Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?" Are these topics a fair cross-section of what gets everyone fired up in interfaith forums? Do they help convince anyone who isn't already convinced? Where might I find a less dogmatic (and therefore more persuasive) presentation of the case for God/Allah?
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 31 January 2013 at 7:07pm
	*Originally posted by nospam001* "Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?" "Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?" "Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?" Are these topics a fair cross-section of what gets everyone fired up in interfaith forums? Do they help convince anyone who isn't already convinced? Where might I find a less dogmatic (and therefore more persuasive) presentation of the case for God/Allah? Mr. Spammer these questions are very fundamental in establishing who Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was and who God is. If one believes that the Trinity makes sense and Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) said it's OK to eat pigs and that he was crucified then this conflicts with the Islmaic belief and one would label Prophet Muhammad (Salallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) as a false prophet. On the other side of the coin is, of course the opposite, which is that the Holy Qur'an is the Words of God and Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is the Prophet and Messenger of God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. So these crucially makes a difference to people's salvation. You've been given intellect by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala but you choose to not to use it and sometimes your intellect is more lacking than a new born baby (not that they lack intellect).
	IP Logged

Webber Senior Member Joined: 09 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 112	Posted: 31 January 2013 at 9:32pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* *Originally posted by nospam001* "Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?" Which trinity are you talking about? Many things were done in threes and could be considered a trinity situation. Trinity of man may interest you. "Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?" There weren't any pigs around at the time so He settled on camels. "Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?" Not sure there was an actual beam, but who knows. There was a Roman soldier and a lot of witnesses who said something happened. Are these topics a fair cross-section of what gets everyone fired up in interfaith forums? Do they help convince anyone who isn't already convinced? Where might I find a less dogmatic (and therefore more persuasive) presentation of the case for God/Allah? I must be in a low intulechewal spasm as I totally missed what it is you are looking for. Was I wrong to think you may be serious? [quote] You've been given intellect by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala but you choose to not to use it and sometimes your intellect is more lacking than a new born baby (not that they lack intellect). Knowledge without maturity is dangerous.
	I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1333	Posted: 05 February 2013 at 10:27am
	*Originally posted by nospam001* And if He places a veil on my heart and then damns me for not believing, that's entirely His choice. Clearly there has to be some kind of cosmic justice in that which, being veiled, I am just too blind to see. A real 'Catch-22'. Maybe that's why no-one on this forum has actually come forward and said it. I do keep bringing it up, I know. You could say it's my 'thing'. Sorry if you find it boring. Greetings nospam, I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures; 2 Cor 4:2-4,18 (Phi) ... If our gospel is "veiled", the veil must be in the minds of those who are spiritually dying. The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe, and prevents the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, the image of God, from shining on them... For we are looking all the time not at the visible things but at the invisible. The visible things are transitory: it is the invisible things that are permanent. The god of this world it is the 'god of this world', satan, that has blinded the eyes of the creation, because it is satan that seeks for God's creation to destroy itself.
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
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