IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is

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Rational

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Posted: 20 January 2013 at 6:31pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Rational

So if you don't believe that He exists, what do you believe? Do you believe it's more probable that everything evolved?

I gather you acknowledge the apparent injustice, but would rather discuss a different topic right now?

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

So what do you believe then?

الله

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nospam001
Male Agnostic
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Posted: 20 January 2013 at 7:26pm

Originally posted by Rational

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

So what do you believe then?

I believe that a God who chooses to handicap people and then punishes them for being handicapped must have a different set of values from those normally ascribed to Him.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Rational

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Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:24am

Originally posted by nospam001

I believe that a God who chooses to handicap people and then punishes them for being handicapped must have a different set of values from those normally ascribed to Him.

In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution.

I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.

Edited by Rational - 21 January 2013 at 2:46am

الله

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nospam001
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Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:16pm

Originally posted by Rational

In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution.

I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?" (attributed to John Maynard Keynes).

There's a good intro on Wikipedia. For me personally, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like Keynes and J B S Haldane, my views could change tomorrow.

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

Originally posted by Rational

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

I now see what you mean. (I think.) Supposing the word 'justice' is defined to include 'any act or omission of God', then any 'apparent injustice' would instantly disappear in a puff of semantics.

While we're at it, other familiar-sounding words like 'consistent', 'truthful', 'forgiving' and 'caring' may be said to apply to God by definition, regardless of His choices.

A sentence such as "God is just" may sound comforting to the proles but conveys no actual information, once you've read the disclaimer. Brilliant!

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:42am

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Rational

In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution.

I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?" (attributed to John Maynard Keynes).

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

Originally posted by Rational

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

I now see what you mean. (I think.) Supposing the word 'justice' is defined to include 'any act or omission of God', then any 'apparent injustice' would instantly disappear in a puff of semantics.

While we're at it, other familiar-sounding words like 'consistent', 'truthful', 'forgiving' and 'caring' may be said to apply to God by definition, regardless of His choices.

A sentence such as "God is just" may sound comforting to the proles but conveys no actual information, once you've read the disclaimer. Brilliant!

Why are you breathing God's precious air? Shouldn't you be grateful to Him?

So you think you are born by chance in a universe which came into existance by chance? You sure are taking a big chance.

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Rational

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Posted: 22 January 2013 at 10:02am

Originally posted by nospam001

I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation

So currently you think it's more plausible that everything was created by chance, bish bash bosh and we have everything. Ok.

Originally posted by nospam001

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.

What do you think?

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nospam001
Male Agnostic
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Posted: 22 January 2013 at 1:51pm

Originally posted by Rational

I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.

I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified.

1 Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures?
2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'?
3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul?
4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures?
5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts?
6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong?

What I think depends very much on these details.

[EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]

Edited by nospam001 - 22 January 2013 at 11:16pm

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 23 January 2013 at 6:49pm

Originally posted by nospam001

What I think depends very much on these details.

[EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]

They've probably taken away your privilege because you are a waste of space and a duck.

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Topic: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is
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Author	Message
Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 20 January 2013 at 6:31pm
	*Originally posted by nospam001* *Originally posted by Rational* So if you don't believe that He exists, what do you believe? Do you believe it's more probable that everything evolved? I gather you acknowledge the apparent injustice, but would rather discuss a different topic right now? Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation. So what do you believe then?
	الله
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 20 January 2013 at 7:26pm
	*Originally posted by Rational* Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation. So what do you believe then? I believe that a God who chooses to handicap people and then punishes them for being handicapped must have a different set of values from those normally ascribed to Him.
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:24am
	*Originally posted by nospam001* I believe that a God who chooses to handicap people and then punishes them for being handicapped must have a different set of values from those normally ascribed to Him. In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution. I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks. Edited by Rational - 21 January 2013 at 2:46am
	الله
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:16pm
	*Originally posted by Rational* In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution. I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks. "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?" (attributed to John Maynard Keynes). There's a good intro on Wikipedia. For me personally, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like Keynes and J B S Haldane, my views could change tomorrow. Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing... *Originally posted by Rational* Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation. I now see what you mean. (I think.) Supposing the word 'justice' is defined to include 'any act or omission of God', then any 'apparent injustice' would instantly disappear in a puff of semantics. While we're at it, other familiar-sounding words like 'consistent', 'truthful', 'forgiving' and 'caring' may be said to apply to God by definition, regardless of His choices. A sentence such as "God is just" may sound comforting to the proles but conveys no actual information, once you've read the disclaimer. Brilliant!
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:42am
	*Originally posted by nospam001* *Originally posted by Rational* In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution. I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks. "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?" (attributed to John Maynard Keynes). There's a good intro on Wikipedia. For me personally, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like Keynes and J B S Haldane, my views could change tomorrow. Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing... *Originally posted by Rational* Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation. I now see what you mean. (I think.) Supposing the word 'justice' is defined to include 'any act or omission of God', then any 'apparent injustice' would instantly disappear in a puff of semantics. While we're at it, other familiar-sounding words like 'consistent', 'truthful', 'forgiving' and 'caring' may be said to apply to God by definition, regardless of His choices. A sentence such as "God is just" may sound comforting to the proles but conveys no actual information, once you've read the disclaimer. Brilliant! Why are you breathing God's precious air? Shouldn't you be grateful to Him? So you think you are born by chance in a universe which came into existance by chance? You sure are taking a big chance.
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Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 22 January 2013 at 10:02am
	*Originally posted by nospam001* I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation So currently you think it's more plausible that everything was created by chance, bish bash bosh and we have everything. Ok. *Originally posted by nospam001* Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing... I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer. What do you think?
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 22 January 2013 at 1:51pm
	*Originally posted by Rational* I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer. I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified. 1 Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures? 2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'? 3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul? 4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures? 5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts? 6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong? What I think depends very much on these details. [EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?] Edited by nospam001 - 22 January 2013 at 11:16pm
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 23 January 2013 at 6:49pm
	*Originally posted by nospam001* *Originally posted by Rational* I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified. 1 Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures? 2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'? 3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul? 4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures? 5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts? 6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong? What I think depends very much on these details. [EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?] They've probably taken away your privilege because you are a waste of space and a duck.
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