IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is

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Originally posted by TG12345

    It is obvious that 7 dates in the AM will not protect a person against all toxins. 

It is also evident that there is no verse in the Quran that commands adulterers to be stoned to death, and that when Muhammad had the woman stoned to death he was not passing this judgement based on the Quran but on what he must have believed God revealed to him outside of it.

It is also true that Muhammad was not correct when he said that before him all prophets were sent to their nation only... since as we both know Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian... yet God sent Moses to the Pharaoh as well as his own people.

The allegation that there was a book given to Jesus and that Christians in the time of Muhammad believed in it before they believed in the Quran cannot be proven.

It is very obvious from the hadiths, that Muhammad said these things... and it is very obvious that on most if not all of these points, he was wrong.

Muhammad was a very intelligent person, and I believe he meant well in wanting to follow God. Unlike your abusive and insulting terminology you use to describe Paul, I do not call him a "devil" and I do not call him a "pedophile" or "terrorist" like some misguided and bigoted 'christians' do.

It is not for me to judge Muhammad, that is God's job. He will also judge you, and judge me, and everyone on and off this forum. 

I have and I will always continue to ask God for guidance. I have prayed for His guidance as I began to read the Quran and study the hadiths. He has answered my prayers... and shown me the errors that are contained in it.

I am not the one who lives in a 'fantasy world', my friend.

I hope to continue this discussion with you, and I will be praying for you and all my other Muslim and non-Christian friends that you come to know Jesus Christ. 

May God guide us all to Him.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Well good luck looking for 'evidence' but believing in God is through faith.[/QUOTE]

I have faith in a God who doesn't make mistakes. I pointed out some of the mistakes and errors in the Quran and hadiths. You are evidently unable to refute any of what I have said, so you wish me 'good luck'.

[QUOTE=Abu Loren]
By the way, you can't compare Paul to Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because Paul was a charlatan and Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was a Prophet of God Almighty.

Paul was a man of God, who met Jesus personally and taught about Him and suffered for his faith in Him. Muhammad believed in God and believed he was His prophet. In spite of this, he said some things that are evidently not true and contradicted the teachings of the same book he claimed God sent down to him.

You are right, it isn't fair to compare Paul to him.

However, I will not judge Muhammad as you judge Paul. I leave judgement to God, and will instead witness to the Truth. 

Edited by TG12345 - 14 January 2013 at 7:00pm

Author	Message
TG12345 Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 16 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 280	Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:57pm
	*Originally posted by TG12345* It is obvious that 7 dates in the AM will not protect a person against all toxins. It is also evident that there is no verse in the Quran that commands adulterers to be stoned to death, and that when Muhammad had the woman stoned to death he was not passing this judgement based on the Quran but on what he must have believed God revealed to him outside of it. It is also true that Muhammad was not correct when he said that before him all prophets were sent to their nation only... since as we both know Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian... yet God sent Moses to the Pharaoh as well as his own people. The allegation that there was a book given to Jesus and that Christians in the time of Muhammad believed in it before they believed in the Quran cannot be proven. It is very obvious from the hadiths, that Muhammad said these things... and it is very obvious that on most if not all of these points, he was wrong. Muhammad was a very intelligent person, and I believe he meant well in wanting to follow God. Unlike your abusive and insulting terminology you use to describe Paul, I do not call him a "devil" and I do not call him a "pedophile" or "terrorist" like some misguided and bigoted 'christians' do. It is not for me to judge Muhammad, that is God's job. He will also judge you, and judge me, and everyone on and off this forum. I have and I will always continue to ask God for guidance. I have prayed for His guidance as I began to read the Quran and study the hadiths. He has answered my prayers... and shown me the errors that are contained in it. I am not the one who lives in a 'fantasy world', my friend. I hope to continue this discussion with you, and I will be praying for you and all my other Muslim and non-Christian friends that you come to know Jesus Christ. May God guide us all to Him. *Originally posted by Abu Loren* Well good luck looking for 'evidence' but believing in God is through faith.[/QUOTE] I have faith in a God who doesn't make mistakes. I pointed out some of the mistakes and errors in the Quran and hadiths. You are evidently unable to refute any of what I have said, so you wish me 'good luck'. [QUOTE=Abu Loren] By the way, you can't compare Paul to Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because Paul was a charlatan and Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was a Prophet of God Almighty. Paul was a man of God, who met Jesus personally and taught about Him and suffered for his faith in Him. Muhammad believed in God and believed he was His prophet. In spite of this, he said some things that are evidently not true and contradicted the teachings of the same book he claimed God sent down to him. You are right, it isn't fair to compare Paul to him. However, I will not judge Muhammad as you judge Paul. I leave judgement to God, and will instead witness to the Truth. Edited by TG12345 - 14 January 2013 at 7:00pm
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TG12345 Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 16 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 280	Posted: 14 January 2013 at 7:16pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance. *Originally posted by Caringheart* Of course he could if he had heard the Psalms, and I am quite sure that he must have been exposed to them in all his travels. and poetry was the arabic way. Anyone will tell you about the poetic cadences of the arabian language that make it so lovely to listen to. *Originally posted by Abu Loren* I think I called you a demon once?.... Funny how she never called you that. What makes you need to stoop so low to need to resort to name calling? Edited by TG12345 - 14 January 2013 at 7:27pm
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 14 January 2013 at 7:34pm
	*Originally posted by TG12345* Sorry, Caringheart, not trying to rude sister but what evidence is there that Muhammad got his poetry from the Psalms? Greetings TG, This comes from a study I did when I was wanting to know more about the rosary. I was led to learn about psalter beads and how the monks used to chant the psalms as they worked in the fields and this is how the locals came to know them as well. As the monks would chant one verse the locals would respond. I think it highly plausible that Muhammad would have been exposed to this in his travels. Also, was Jesus not found by His parents sitting in the temple? Could not Muhammad in his young years of traveling with his uncle have been found doing the same? *Originally posted by TG12345* The Quran contains many truths and it was written by someone who was very intelligent and meant well, and I believe who got some of his knowledge from the supernatural. I do not disagree. It contains just enough of the truth... It also contains things that are not true,
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 14 January 2013 at 7:52pm
	*Originally posted by TG12345* [QUOTE=Abu Loren] Funny how she never called you that. What makes you need to stoop so low to need to resort to name calling? I appreciate the defense TG. I actually had written something to Abu which I chose not to post on the forum. Abu Loren, I would like to share this with you now... on Jan 10th I wrote this in my offline journal; believe it or not, I even understand why you see me as a demon. I am challenging your beliefs and to you this is something from the devil. but do I see you as a demon for challenging mine? No, I see you as human. It actually really does hurt me when people react as you do. [end of journal post] I also do not like it when I cause people distress which is what I tried to share with you on Jan. 10th. However I do not see what purpose it serves to not allow me to express my thoughts, my ideas, my beliefs. You share yours no matter how offensive to others they may be. (I think I have said that already.) If you feel my thoughts, my ideas, my beliefs to be wrong, you are free to share that with me... but how could you share if you did not know how things seem to me. I wish you peace, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 14 January 2013 at 7:57pm
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 14 January 2013 at 8:18pm
	*Originally posted by TG12345* What have you done to combat injustice and war in the world? Not a lot, compared to your own daring exploits in Palestine, TG. That's for sure. *Originally posted by TG12345* *Originally posted by nospam001* Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes? It's not about heavenly reward or lack of it. It's about being faithful to God. In normal conversation it can be hard to adequately express how strongly one believes something. So, to help you really convey the power of your conviction, let us imagine an alternative set of beliefs, one which is identical to your own except for one thing, namely that although your loyalty is still greatly appreciated by God (if not grandly rewarded in heaven), there is no guarantee of any heavenly compensation for the torture victim. (Or more simply, you could assume she is not the right kind of Christian and is therefore not eligible to earn herself any 'loyalty points' for her pains.) I know I'm getting really hypothetical here, but please bear with me. As before, let's also suppose you are in absolutely no doubt that you could stop her being tortured simply by saying something you don't actually believe. Under these conditions, would you still pray for the strength to speak your truth at any cost? I guess the answer must be yes, given that 'being faithful to God' is all that matters, and it's 'not about heavenly reward or lack of it'. In other words, so much unrewarded suffering would be the price she pays to help you demonstrate the indestructible faith you have in God. I know you did say "It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer." If that's what you really meant, then... wow. Now, what if there were not one but millions of innocent (but non-Christian) children you could save simply by uttering one falsehood? To make it even trickier, what if, by doggedly affirming your true faith, you were also certain to receive vast material advantage (money, power, good health, etc..)? You get the idea. Do feel free to add even more outrageously extreme conditions as you see fit.
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 14 January 2013 at 9:26pm
	Hi Caringheart, TG12345 Ad-hominem attacks are always counterproductive. I think Abu Loren realises that. So don't worry, and don't expect him to apologise.
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 14 January 2013 at 9:58pm
	*Originally posted by nospam001* In normal conversation it can be hard to adequately express how strongly one believes something. So, to help you really convey the power of your conviction, let us imagine an alternative set of beliefs, one which is identical to your own except for one thing, namely that although your loyalty is still greatly appreciated by God (if not grandly rewarded in heaven), there is no guarantee of any heavenly compensation for the torture victim. (Or more simply, you could assume she is not the right kind of Christian and is therefore not eligible to earn herself any 'loyalty points' for her pains.) I know I'm getting really hypothetical here, but please bear with me. As before, let's also suppose you are in absolutely no doubt that you could stop her being tortured simply by saying something you don't actually believe. Under these conditions, would you still pray for the strength to speak your truth at any cost? I guess the answer must be yes, given that 'being faithful to God' is all that matters, and it's 'not about heavenly reward or lack of it'. In other words, so much unrewarded suffering would be the price she pays to help you demonstrate the indestructible faith you have in God. I know you did say "It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer." If that's what you really meant, then... wow. Now, what if there were not one but millions of innocent (but non-Christian) children you could save simply by uttering one falsehood? To make it even trickier, what if, by doggedly affirming your true faith, you were also certain to receive vast material advantage (money, power, good health, etc..)? You get the idea. Do feel free to add even more outrageously extreme conditions as you see fit. Very thought-provoking you are. These are my thoughts; I imagine I might condemn myself to hell to spare the one I love. I wonder if I might then be forgiven on judgement day, because I laid down my life for love of another, and my motives were pure? "Greater love has no man than this, but that he lay down his life for another." Hmmmm......
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 14 January 2013 at 10:29pm
	"Ad-hominem attacks" I had to look it up; An ad hominem argument has the basic form: Person A makes claim X. Person B makes an attack on person A. Therefore A's claim must be false. The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made). : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made Often, ad hominem attacks are used subtly in order to influence the views of spectators. There are many forms of this, such as pointing out bad things they (The opponent) have done in the past in arguments about morality (They are not attacking the person's points about morality, they are attacking the person) Ad hominem attacks are hardly ever used plainly, and people who do are generally trolls who want to provoke people to fight. These are often partnered with not even responding to the person's post, using arguments that make no sense, and thus have never been heard of, then mocking their opponent when they fail to find a rebuttal, and many other such techniques. (this one reminds me not of Abu but of another on this forum). Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it. The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself. Very educational lesson for me. I don't know that I would say that this was what Abu was doing, but I certainly know someone else who does it. Edited by Caringheart - 14 January 2013 at 10:34pm
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