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Message Icon Topic: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is Post Reply Post New Topic
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nospam001
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:00pm

Originally posted by TG12345

If I was in a situation where my wife or family or friends were being threatened with torture or death and the only way I could save them was by renouncing my faith, I would not do it. It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer, but I would ask God to give me the courage to not renounce regardless of what happened.
It's axiomatic that God will make just the right adjustment to each soul's compensation in the afterlife. So, in the end, everything works out the same, or at least equivalent.

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by TG12345


Hi nospam001,

I have to say that I can understand Abu Loren here. If God gives you a command, you follow it.

I agree with Abu Loren that it is all or nothing.


Originally posted by Caringheart

You would cut off your own child's hand?
You would think that could possibly be a command of God?

No, I do not believe that God wants us to cut off anyone's hands.

However, at a certain point in history He commanded that disobedient children be stoned to death. An Israelite who did that during the times of Deuteronomy would have been following God's commands at that time. He would have found it extremely difficult and traumatic, but he would have done so because this is what God desired then.

God at the present does not allow us to stone people to death or harm them, because vengeance is His to take and we are ordered not to judge and condemn or we will be judged and condemned ourselves.

This is what Christ revealed. People in the OT times did not have that yet. If I was Abu Loren during that time and God's law said I would have to stone my son, I would have done it. Because it is what God wants.

I do not believe in cutting off people's hands, however I agree with Abu Loren that we should follow God's laws even if the rest of the world disagrees.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think that is the point nospam was making.
I think he is asking Abu would he do this to his own child, or seek another way?


Let's move the discussion from hand removal to something the Bible commands. If you had a choice between denying Jesus and losing your child, what would you do?
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by TG12345

If I was in a situation where my wife or family or friends were being threatened with torture or death and the only way I could save them was by renouncing my faith, I would not do it. It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer, but I would ask God to give me the courage to not renounce regardless of what happened.


Originally posted by nospam001

It's axiomatic that God will make just the right adjustment to each soul's compensation in the afterlife. So, in the end, everything works out the same, or at least equivalent.

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?



It's not about heavenly reward or lack of it. It's about being faithful to God.

He would maybe forgive as He forgave Peter when he repented, but it is not up to me to take advantage of His grace and forgiveness. In a weak moment perhaps I would deny my faith... but I would pray that this did not happen.

Originally posted by nospam001

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?


What have you done to combat injustice and war in the world?
He would probably forgive as He forgave Peter when he repented, but it is not up to me to take advantage of His grace and forgiveness. In a weak moment perhaps I would deny my faith... but I would pray that this did not happen.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2013 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by TG12345

If I was in a situation where my wife or family or friends were being threatened with torture or death and the only way I could save them was by renouncing my faith, I would not do it. It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer, but I would ask God to give me the courage to not renounce regardless of what happened.
It's axiomatic that God will make just the right adjustment to each soul's compensation in the afterlife. So, in the end, everything works out the same, or at least equivalent.

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?

 
This is why faith in God is not for you Mr. Agnostic, you are the kind of person, perhaps, pick and choose from the religion to suit whatever YOU feel is right. You would abandon God's Law and replace it with your own.
 
It's answers like these that makes us realise how different people have varying levels of understanding.
 
On a side note, you've been married to a Muslimah for sixteen years and you STILL do not know her religion? Shame.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2013 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by TG12345

If I was in a situation where my wife or family or friends were being threatened with torture or death and the only way I could save them was by renouncing my faith, I would not do it. It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer, but I would ask God to give me the courage to not renounce regardless of what happened.


Originally posted by nospam001

It's axiomatic that God will make just the right adjustment to each soul's compensation in the afterlife. So, in the end, everything works out the same, or at least equivalent.

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?



It's not about heavenly reward or lack of it. It's about being faithful to God.

He would maybe forgive as He forgave Peter when he repented, but it is not up to me to take advantage of His grace and forgiveness. In a weak moment perhaps I would deny my faith... but I would pray that this did not happen.

Originally posted by nospam001

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?


What have you done to combat injustice and war in the world?
He would probably forgive as He forgave Peter when he repented, but it is not up to me to take advantage of His grace and forgiveness. In a weak moment perhaps I would deny my faith... but I would pray that this did not happen.
 
I would urge you to abandon your misguided belief in Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) and embrace the belief in the One True God. Forget what people say and read the Holy Qur'an for yourself and ask for guidance. Submitting to the One True God will be the happiest day of your life. Be part of the Final Covenent of God before it's too late.
 
Sahih International
 
And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. 2:48
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 3:12am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by TG12345

If I was in a situation where my wife or family or friends were being threatened with torture or death and the only way I could save them was by renouncing my faith, I would not do it. It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer, but I would ask God to give me the courage to not renounce regardless of what happened.


Originally posted by nospam001

It's axiomatic that God will make just the right adjustment to each soul's compensation in the afterlife. So, in the end, everything works out the same, or at least equivalent.

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?



It's not about heavenly reward or lack of it. It's about being faithful to God.

He would maybe forgive as He forgave Peter when he repented, but it is not up to me to take advantage of His grace and forgiveness. In a weak moment perhaps I would deny my faith... but I would pray that this did not happen.

Originally posted by nospam001

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?


What have you done to combat injustice and war in the world?
He would probably forgive as He forgave Peter when he repented, but it is not up to me to take advantage of His grace and forgiveness. In a weak moment perhaps I would deny my faith... but I would pray that this did not happen.
 
I would urge you to abandon your misguided belief in Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) and embrace the belief in the One True God. Forget what people say and read the Holy Qur'an for yourself and ask for guidance. Submitting to the One True God will be the happiest day of your life. Be part of the Final Covenent of God before it's too late.
 
Sahih International
 
And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. 2:48


Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren. I do believe in the One True God. He is my Creator, He is my Saviour, and He will be my Judge. He reveals Himself to humanity as the Father, He came to the earth as Jesus Christ, and He lives in me as the Holy Spirit.

There has been a time in my life when my faith in Him was shaken, and I have prayed and asked God to reveal to me whether what Islam says about Him is real. I began to read the Quran and there were times when I doubted what the Bible has to say. I asked Him to show me if my faith in Him was misplaced.

I am reading the Quran. I am not finished it yet completely. God has already shown me errors and mistakes in it that prove to me that it cannot be His word, since He does not make mistakes or errors. He has also led me to see some obvious mistakes in some of the hadiths that are authentic. The major mistake and error of course is Islam's denial of Jesus' nature and death and resurrection, but there are others that make it extremely clear that Islam cannot be of God.

My stance on the Quran and hadiths is not based on what non-Muslims say, it is based on what is in the books, and sometimes also on the opinion of Muslim scholars.

Through this journey, God has also helped me understand the Bible better.

I pray for you that you abandon your misguided belief in the misrepresentation of God's word that is in the Quran and hadiths, and accept who God really is and what He has done for you. You only have this life to choose to follow Him or not. After you die, it will be too late.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 3:22am
Originally posted by TG12345


Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren. I do believe in the One True God. He is my Creator, He is my Saviour, and He will be my Judge. He reveals Himself to humanity as the Father, He came to the earth as Jesus Christ, and He lives in me as the Holy Spirit.

There has been a time in my life when my faith in Him was shaken, and I have prayed and asked God to reveal to me whether what Islam says about Him is real. I began to read the Quran and there were times when I doubted what the Bible has to say. I asked Him to show me if my faith in Him was misplaced.

I am reading the Quran. I am not finished it yet completely. God has already shown me errors and mistakes in it that prove to me that it cannot be His word, since He does not make mistakes or errors. He has also led me to see some obvious mistakes in some of the hadiths that are authentic. The major mistake and error of course is Islam's denial of Jesus' nature and death and resurrection, but there are others that make it extremely clear that Islam cannot be of God.

My stance on the Quran and hadiths is not based on what non-Muslims say, it is based on what is in the books, and sometimes also on the opinion of Muslim scholars.

Through this journey, God has also helped me understand the Bible better.

I pray for you that you abandon your misguided belief in the misrepresentation of God's word that is in the Quran and hadiths, and accept who God really is and what He has done for you. You only have this life to choose to follow Him or not. After you die, it will be too late.
 
Wa Alaikkum
 
Alas in that case all I can say is that you do not have guidnace from above and He has set a seal in your heart.
 
Indeed we will both have to face our conequences on THE DAY as everybody else. To me, Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) could never be God, he is a mighty messenger and prophet of God who will come back soon Insha'Allah and will set the world aright.
 
I suppose there will always be two camps, one for and for against God, as was from the beginning. Unfortunately satan has done a great job of misguiding the majority of humanity who will abide in hell for eternity.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 3:46am
Originally posted by TG12345


Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren. I do believe in the One True God. He is my Creator, He is my Saviour, and He will be my Judge. He reveals Himself to humanity as the Father, He came to the earth as Jesus Christ, and He lives in me as the Holy Spirit.

There has been a time in my life when my faith in Him was shaken, and I have prayed and asked God to reveal to me whether what Islam says about Him is real. I began to read the Quran and there were times when I doubted what the Bible has to say. I asked Him to show me if my faith in Him was misplaced.

I am reading the Quran. I am not finished it yet completely. God has already shown me errors and mistakes in it that prove to me that it cannot be His word, since He does not make mistakes or errors. He has also led me to see some obvious mistakes in some of the hadiths that are authentic. The major mistake and error of course is Islam's denial of Jesus' nature and death and resurrection, but there are others that make it extremely clear that Islam cannot be of God.

My stance on the Quran and hadiths is not based on what non-Muslims say, it is based on what is in the books, and sometimes also on the opinion of Muslim scholars.

Through this journey, God has also helped me understand the Bible better.

I pray for you that you abandon your misguided belief in the misrepresentation of God's word that is in the Quran and hadiths, and accept who God really is and what He has done for you. You only have this life to choose to follow Him or not. After you die, it will be too late.
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Wa Alaikkum
 
Alas in that case all I can say is that you do not have guidnace from above and He has set a seal in your heart.
 
Indeed we will both have to face our conequences on THE DAY as everybody else. To me, Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) could never be God, he is a mighty messenger and prophet of God who will come back soon Insha'Allah and will set the world aright.
 
I suppose there will always be two camps, one for and for against God, as was from the beginning. Unfortunately satan has done a great job of misguiding the majority of humanity who will abide in hell for eternity.

Alaikum Salaam. Jesus will definitely come again, and we will definitely face Judgement. Satan is indeed a liar and deceiver, and he is leading most of humanity to an eternal hell.

God did not set a seal in my heart against coming to Him, He does not do such things. My faith teaches that He loves humanity and those who want to come to Him He guides to Him. I hope and pray that He will guide you to Him before it is too late.

I have posted frequently in this forum, and have pointed out some obvious mistakes in your scriptures, mistakes that even a non-Christian would notice. I have so far not have had been presented with any evidence that makes up for the contradictions and errors in some of the things Muhammad said. This is only in reference to the hadiths, I haven't yet even started too much on the Quran.

I am involved in a long running debate with a Muslim on this forum and also post on a Christian forum (as well as having a life outside of the internet), so I am not posting as much as I could be.


If you want to present me with evidence you think exists for your faith being true and my faith being wrong, feel free to do so. So far your words and the words of other well-meaning Muslims have only helped convince me of the opposite.

Allah Akhbar. Blessed be the Name of the Lord.
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