IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is

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Caringheart

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:22pm

Abu,

What you don't seem to understand is that when other people are asked questions they do research on their own and then share what they have found. That is all that TG was doing.

Salaam,
CH

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Caringheart

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:23pm

At least you two have made me laugh...
sheik, pope, and caliph LOL

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TG12345
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 2:56pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

At least you two have made me laugh...
sheik, pope, and caliph LOL

Glad to hear that some good came out of our conversation LOL. LOL

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nospam001
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 5:39pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time.

Abu Loren

Are you simply presenting the 'official' facts here, out of a sense of public duty, or is it something you actually agree with in your heart?

Suppose your own child's neck were on the chopping block? And what if the sword were in your hands? Would that make a difference?

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 6:50pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Abu Loren

From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time.

Abu Loren

Are you simply presenting the 'official' facts here, out of a sense of public duty, or is it something you actually agree with in your heart?

Suppose your own child's neck were on the chopping block? And what if the sword were in your hands? Would that make a difference?

Very good questions Mr. Agnostic,

Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was willing to cut off his own daughter's hands if she would sin by stealing. These commands are from God and one must follow through with them.

In my own situation, however I wouldn't have even contemplated it a couple of years ago but today as a Muslim I must carry that through. We cannot pick and choose what we want from the religion, it's all or nothing. So I would have to say that if my married daughter was caught in the act of adultery then yes she must be punished according to God's Laws.

'A'isha reported that the Quraish had been anxious about the Makhzumi woman who had committed theft, and said:

Who will speak to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about her? They said: Who dare it, but Usama, the loved one of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? So Usama spoke to him. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do you intercede regarding one of the punishments prescribed by Allah? He then stood up and addressed (people) saying: O people, those who have gone before you were destroyed, because if any one of high rank committed theft amongst them, they spared him; and it anyone of low rank committed theft, they inflicted the prescribed punishment upon him. By Allah, if Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, were to steal, I would have her hand cut off. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Rumh (the words are):" Verily those before you perished."

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nospam001
Male Agnostic
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:47pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

In my own situation, however I wouldn't have even contemplated it a couple of years ago but today as a Muslim I must carry that through. We cannot pick and choose what we want from the religion, it's all or nothing. So I would have to say that if my married daughter was caught in the act of adultery then yes she must be punished according to God's Laws.

By "must" do you simply mean "otherwise I will be punished", or is there something else (as well) that makes killing your own daughter the only possible option?

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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TG12345
Male Christian
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Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281

Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:54pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time.

Abu Loren

Originally posted by nospam001

Are you simply presenting the 'official' facts here, out of a sense of public duty, or is it something you actually agree with in your heart?

Suppose your own child's neck were on the chopping block? And what if the sword were in your hands? Would that make a difference?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Very good questions Mr. Agnostic,

Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was willing to cut off his own daughter's hands if she would sin by stealing. These commands are from God and one must follow through with them.

'A'isha reported that the Quraish had been anxious about the Makhzumi woman who had committed theft, and said:

Hi nospam001,

I have to say that I can understand Abu Loren here. If God gives you a command, you follow it.

I obviously do not believe that God wants people to kill those who leave the faith. This is not what Christianity teaches. Abu Loren and Nausheen believe this is what Islam teaches, other Muslims feel differently. It is between them to figure out what Islam teaches on the matter.

However, Christianity does teach things that many non-Christians would strongly disagree with... and that even many Christians who are mellow in their belief try to ignore.

Our faith that we should not renounce Jesus, no matter what. If I was in a situation where my wife or family or friends were being threatened with torture or death and the only way I could save them was by renouncing my faith, I would not do it. It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer, but I would ask God to give me the courage to not renounce regardless of what happened. My wife feels the same way.

Jesus also said to love one's enemies and to turn the other cheek. When I was in the West Bank, I did not try to fight back or run from the settlers in black ski masks who beat me with a metal pipe. I would put my body between whoever was trying to hurt someone I love and they would have to kill me before killing them, but I would not fight.

Some would probably see this as sick or fanatical or extremist. I see it as following God, and if the world has a problem with that, that is a problem of the world and not mine. I care more about pleasing God than pleasing the world. The world didn't die on the cross for my salvation. Jesus did.

I agree with Abu Loren that it is all or nothing.

Edited by TG12345 - 13 January 2013 at 8:56pm

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Caringheart

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 9:22pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Hi nospam001,

I have to say that I can understand Abu Loren here. If God gives you a command, you follow it.

I agree with Abu Loren that it is all or nothing.

You would cut off your own child's hand?
You would think that could possibly be a command of God?

I think that is the point nospam was making.
I think he is asking Abu would he do this to his own child, or seek another way?

Edited by Caringheart - 13 January 2013 at 9:24pm

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Topic: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is
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Author	Message
Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:22pm
	Abu, What you don't seem to understand is that when other people are asked questions they do research on their own and then share what they have found. That is all that TG was doing. Salaam, CH
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:23pm
	At least you two have made me laugh... sheik, pope, and caliph
	IP Logged

TG12345 Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 16 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 13 January 2013 at 2:56pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* At least you two have made me laugh... sheik, pope, and caliph Glad to hear that some good came out of our conversation LOL.
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 13 January 2013 at 5:39pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time. Abu Loren Are you simply presenting the 'official' facts here, out of a sense of public duty, or is it something you actually agree with in your heart? Suppose your own child's neck were on the chopping block? And what if the sword were in your hands? Would that make a difference?
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 13 January 2013 at 6:50pm
	*Originally posted by nospam001* *Originally posted by Abu Loren* From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time. Abu Loren Are you simply presenting the 'official' facts here, out of a sense of public duty, or is it something you actually agree with in your heart? Suppose your own child's neck were on the chopping block? And what if the sword were in your hands? Would that make a difference? Very good questions Mr. Agnostic, Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was willing to cut off his own daughter's hands if she would sin by stealing. These commands are from God and one must follow through with them. In my own situation, however I wouldn't have even contemplated it a couple of years ago but today as a Muslim I must carry that through. We cannot pick and choose what we want from the religion, it's all or nothing. So I would have to say that if my married daughter was caught in the act of adultery then yes she must be punished according to God's Laws. 'A'isha reported that the Quraish had been anxious about the Makhzumi woman who had committed theft, and said: Who will speak to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about her? They said: Who dare it, but Usama, the loved one of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? So Usama spoke to him. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do you intercede regarding one of the punishments prescribed by Allah? He then stood up and addressed (people) saying: O people, those who have gone before you were destroyed, because if any one of high rank committed theft amongst them, they spared him; and it anyone of low rank committed theft, they inflicted the prescribed punishment upon him. By Allah, if Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, were to steal, I would have her hand cut off. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Rumh (the words are):" Verily those before you perished."
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:47pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* In my own situation, however I wouldn't have even contemplated it a couple of years ago but today as a Muslim I must carry that through. We cannot pick and choose what we want from the religion, it's all or nothing. So I would have to say that if my married daughter was caught in the act of adultery then yes she must be punished according to God's Laws. By "must" do you simply mean "otherwise I will be punished", or is there something else (as well) that makes killing your own daughter the only possible option?
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
	IP Logged

TG12345 Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 16 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:54pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time. Abu Loren *Originally posted by nospam001* Are you simply presenting the 'official' facts here, out of a sense of public duty, or is it something you actually agree with in your heart? Suppose your own child's neck were on the chopping block? And what if the sword were in your hands? Would that make a difference? *Originally posted by Abu Loren* Very good questions Mr. Agnostic, Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was willing to cut off his own daughter's hands if she would sin by stealing. These commands are from God and one must follow through with them. In my own situation, however I wouldn't have even contemplated it a couple of years ago but today as a Muslim I must carry that through. We cannot pick and choose what we want from the religion, it's all or nothing. So I would have to say that if my married daughter was caught in the act of adultery then yes she must be punished according to God's Laws. 'A'isha reported that the Quraish had been anxious about the Makhzumi woman who had committed theft, and said: Who will speak to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about her? They said: Who dare it, but Usama, the loved one of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? So Usama spoke to him. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do you intercede regarding one of the punishments prescribed by Allah? He then stood up and addressed (people) saying: O people, those who have gone before you were destroyed, because if any one of high rank committed theft amongst them, they spared him; and it anyone of low rank committed theft, they inflicted the prescribed punishment upon him. By Allah, if Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, were to steal, I would have her hand cut off. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Rumh (the words are):" Verily those before you perished." Hi nospam001, I have to say that I can understand Abu Loren here. If God gives you a command, you follow it. I obviously do not believe that God wants people to kill those who leave the faith. This is not what Christianity teaches. Abu Loren and Nausheen believe this is what Islam teaches, other Muslims feel differently. It is between them to figure out what Islam teaches on the matter. However, Christianity does teach things that many non-Christians would strongly disagree with... and that even many Christians who are mellow in their belief try to ignore. Our faith that we should not renounce Jesus, no matter what. If I was in a situation where my wife or family or friends were being threatened with torture or death and the only way I could save them was by renouncing my faith, I would not do it. It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer, but I would ask God to give me the courage to not renounce regardless of what happened. My wife feels the same way. Jesus also said to love one's enemies and to turn the other cheek. When I was in the West Bank, I did not try to fight back or run from the settlers in black ski masks who beat me with a metal pipe. I would put my body between whoever was trying to hurt someone I love and they would have to kill me before killing them, but I would not fight. Some would probably see this as sick or fanatical or extremist. I see it as following God, and if the world has a problem with that, that is a problem of the world and not mine. I care more about pleasing God than pleasing the world. The world didn't die on the cross for my salvation. Jesus did. I agree with Abu Loren that it is all or nothing. Edited by TG12345 - 13 January 2013 at 8:56pm
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 13 January 2013 at 9:22pm
	*Originally posted by TG12345* Hi nospam001, I have to say that I can understand Abu Loren here. If God gives you a command, you follow it. I agree with Abu Loren that it is all or nothing. You would cut off your own child's hand? You would think that could possibly be a command of God? I think that is the point nospam was making. I think he is asking Abu would he do this to his own child, or seek another way? Edited by Caringheart - 13 January 2013 at 9:24pm
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