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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is Post Reply Post New Topic
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 10:38pm
This was a beautiful topic started by Abu Loren, and I hate to derail it with the apostasy discussion.
If anyone is annoyed by the discourse, please feel free to voice it. I will not mind taking it to a new string.

Hello Caringheart,

Thank you for respecting us and our belief. I hope you also do not see any disrepect towards yourself or your religion in this response of mine, as none whatsoever is intended.

"I think apostasy is a complicated issue not just for non-muslims but for the muslim as well. One that must be addressed."

You are partly correct. It is an issue for a) muslims who have entered islam without doing their homework, and now somehow want to get out.
b) those muslims who are active in dawah work and need to discuss the issue with non-muslims.

I myself got aquainted with it on islamicity, after it was brought up by an apostate. Thanks to him.

"By who? Does your allah say that humans are to carry this out upon one another... or is it meant that they condemn themselves to death, rather than eternal life, at judgement day when they meet their maker?"

The 'hudud of Allah' - ie the punishments in islam, which are pronounced on a person through the sharia are supposed to be commands of Allah.
Although the sharia laws are executed by 'humans' its function is like that of a judiciary in secular governments. Sharia is not equivalent to just any human being, like a judiciary.
The laws and prescribed punishments in a judiciary are made by humans, but the laws and punishemnts in sharia are made by Allah.
- this is not a mere personal statement, it is the islamic belief that the laws and prescibed punishments are divine in nature.

"... until Islam comes to their country... then they may be in for something they didn't bargain for... their loss of freedom to choose... of 'no compulsion in religion'."

You mean when islamic sharia becomes a governing force in their country ...
weather or not that happens in near future. Faith and matters of afterlife should never be taken lightly. For the person who wants to enter islam, should not do so without thorough scrutiny of the belief system and their own spiritual inclination towards it. One who is in doubt should wait and research further till their heart is fully in line with it.

I agree with Abu Loren that once a person enters the faith Shaytan starts working overtime with whispers ... however Allah has said that the temptations of the shaytan are weak. He only suggests, he cannot physically make a person act upon those suggestions. One who turns to Allah and takes refuge in Him from the whispers of shaytan these doubts get fainter, and gradually fade away.

You've said in another post that one cannot learn about islam without entering it - this is wrong. No knowledge is hidden from anyone. It may be camaflouged in the propaganda, lies and delusions about islam from the anti-islamic activists. From the Muslims, there is no secret agenda of trapping people in islam, one enters for the sake of Allah and for the benefit of their own soul, thus benefit is for the person who accepts.

Peace!




Edited by Nausheen - 10 January 2013 at 10:39pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 2:16am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Abu Loren,

I understand that you completely believe in what you believe in,
but I do not.  You have been free to challenge me, have you not?  I also challenge what you believe.

Salaam,
Caringheart
 
Ever since I've known you in this forum you have closed your ears to what we say to you and twist our words to suit your own belief. You divert believers away from the Straight Path, this is a great sin and hence the reason I called you a demon.
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 4:17am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by TG12345


Caringheart, it is to my understanding that Islam does not teach that people who leave the faith are to be killed, but this was only for those who fought the Muslims after leaving Islam.



Apostacy is another very complicated issue for non-muslims, like so many others they found in islam.

If an apostate does not voice their choices openly, the sharia has nothing to do with them and it is not the business of common people to punish them under any circumstances.
If they really want to make public of their choice, then they better go out of darul-haram, ie out of a land which is ruled by islamic sharia.

...And, there are very many details to how and when the sharia deals with an apostate.

Punishment of apostacy is indeed a death sentence.

As for those who enter islam in western countries, if realize later that they have made a mistake, there is no problem ... they can do whatever they like.



Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,

Thank you for being so honest and open about your faith. I have spoken to other Muslims who have argued the death penalty for apostacy applied only during the time of Muhammad, I wasn't aware of Muslims (outside of countries like Afghanistan etc) who believe it should still be applied.

I have to say, with all due respect, that this is one of the reasons I would never become Muslim. I don't think that a religion that is truly of no compulsion would punish people for leaving. I also think it is a form of weakness to punish people for no longer believing what you believe, and points to an inability to convince them to come back to what you believe is true, and a fear that others will also fall away.

Judas betrayed Jesus, yet He never punished him. Christianity does not allow us to kill even our enemies, we are to show love to our friends and neighbours and enemies alike. We are told to specifically pray for our enemies.

People who turn away from Christianity turn away from the Truth, they may or may not come back to Jesus. If they do, God will welcome them with open arms. If they do not, they will lose their salvation. He will be their judge.

He, not us. Our job is to pray for them, witness to them and to love them.


I have to say I strongly disagree with the Islamic teaching (if that is indeed what Islam teaches, since I do know Muslims who believe differently) that apostates should be made to leave a Muslim nation or be killed if they make their choice public.
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W.S.
 
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Quote W.S. Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

You want to believe that there is only One God, that all the Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them all) of God were sent to warn people who were astray. Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) is the Messiah and a mighty Prophet of God. He is fully human like you and me, therefore worshipping him like a god is wrong. God has always been outside of his creation.
Yes, but just in case you weren't aware: people become Muslim for various reasons.
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

You find out the truth for yourself, yet there still remains a nagging doubt.
You may start to believe in something, but finding out the truth?
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Satan will work overtime to put doubts in your mind.
 
Or maybe you realize, for instance, that you and I and all animals and plants on this planet wouldn't be here if it weren't for evolution.
Originally posted by Abu Loren

The closer you are to God, the more fulfilling your life is
 
And how do you get there? By performing the salat? I did that for two months and the longer I'd done it, the more mechanical and meaningless it felt. Plus, I could barely walk normally during this period.
 
Originally posted by TG12345

I don't think that a religion that is truly of no compulsion would punish people for leaving. I also think it is a form of weakness to punish people for no longer believing what you believe, and points to an inability to convince them to come back to what you believe is true, and a fear that others will also fall away.

I just have to say that I totally agree with you here.


Edited by W.S. - 11 January 2013 at 11:00am
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 11:01am
Originally posted by W.S.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

You want to believe that there is only One God, that all the Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them all) of God were sent to warn people who were astray. Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) is the Messiah and a mighty Prophet of God. He is fully human like you and me, therefore worshipping him like a god is wrong. God has always been outside of his creation.
Yes, but just in case you weren't aware: people become Muslim for various reasons.
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

You find out the truth for yourself, yet there still remains a nagging doubt.
You may start to believe in something, but finding out the truth?
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Satan will work overtime to put doubts in your mind.
 
Or maybe you realize, for instance, that you and I and all animals and plants on this planet wouldn't be here if it weren't for evolution.
Originally posted by Abu Loren

The closer you are to God, the more fulfilling your life is
 
And how do you get there? By performing the salat? I did that for two months and the longer I'd done it, the more mechanical and meaningless it felt. Plus, I could barely walk normally during this period.
 
Well WS it looks like you didn't have guidance from above when you became a Muslim and probably you became a Muslims for the wrong reasons. Do you feel anything when you read the translation of the Holy Qur'an? Are you moved when you listen to an Arabic recitation of the Holy Qur'an? If you find salat cumbersome then you don't understand Islam. Sorry to be blunt but there's no other way around it.
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Quote W.S. Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Well WS it looks like you didn't have guidance from above when you became a Muslim and probably you became a Muslims for the wrong reasons.
 
Perhaps it is so.
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Do you feel anything when you read the translation of the Holy Qur'an?
Not so much anymore.
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Are you moved when you listen to an Arabic recitation of the Holy Qur'an?
I haven't really been listening to an Arabic recitation of the Quran, but I guess that in combination with something else that is fascinating, the sound of someone reciting the Quran in Arabic can have a certain effect. Like, if you see a big, beautiful mosque or a community in a Muslim country on TV, and you hear a recitation in the background. I walked passed the door of the home a Muslim family not so long ago, and you could hear that they were listening to a recitation, and I remember kind of wishing that that attractive wife in there was my wife, and that those kids in there were my kids.
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

If you find salat cumbersome then you don't understand Islam. Sorry to be blunt but there's no other way around it.
 
I think I do understand the meaning of salat. But there are too many things that I don't heartily believe in, even if I want to, and I won't fake it. This does not mean, however, that I see myself as having left Islam, or that I see myself as a case forever lost.
 
 
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 7:16pm
Greetings again Nausheen,
"Punishment of apostacy is indeed a death sentence. "
Have you ever thought about, wondered, or considered, "Why"?
 .
 .
 .
 .  take more than just a few minutes to consider that...
 .
 .
 .
 .

     People like to say that Islam is a religion of logic and reason.
What is the logic and reason for killing people who exercise the free will given to them by the Creator Himself?
     Islam is supposed to be against oppression.
Isn't this oppression?

So what place does this idea have in God's plan?  How did it get into the scriptures?  (Is it in the scriptures or just in the Hadiths?)  Does this really come from the Creator?  (Whether it does or does not, Islam holds you to it.)

If God is saying that you are condemning yourself to an eternity in hell... to death eternal, rather than life eternal, that is logical.  That God is saying humans shall take away your life for Me, and take away all chance of redemption, that is not logical or reasonable.
So the thing is, with the scriptures, is that they can hold you to something God never intended.  They can be a deception to lead you into your own damnation.

I think TG makes a good statement.

I am not speaking against muslims, in fact I have both respect and concern for them, and all people.

Salaam,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 11 January 2013 at 7:24pm
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 12 January 2013 at 7:18am
Originally posted by W.S.


I think I do understand the meaning of salat. But there are too many things that I don't heartily believe in, even if I want to, and I won't fake it. This does not mean, however, that I see myself as having left Islam, or that I see myself as a case forever lost.


Would you care to discuss any of your fears with us.

In a frank setting, where we do not know or judge you personally, but may be we can help you a bit.

Nobody is forcing anything on you. Just for you to make better sense of things, would you like to give it a try.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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