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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Discussion and challenge to MahditheSeeker Post Reply Post New Topic
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2013 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Rational

‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته


Originally posted by TG12345

My Arabic is pretty poor, I took some lessons before going to the West Bank but that was more than 2 years ago. Care to share with me what that means?

Originally posted by Rational

The arabic you see is the way us muslims greet each other. The "و" (the letter 'waaw') is "and". Why did you go to the Wesk Bank if you don't mind me asking?

Cool. When speaking to non-Muslims, you just say "salaam alaikum"? When I was in the West Bank, I would greet my Palestinian Christian and Muslim friends this way and they'd greet me in kind.

I was in the West Bank with 2 groups, one called Christian Peacemaker Teams and the other International Solidarity Movement. Our job was to document the Israeli army's and settler's abuses of Palestinians and when able to, step in and try to prevent them. It worked to an extent, sometimes we were able to get soldiers to stop harrassing people on the streets when they saw we were filming them. We would also share people's stories with others we know back in our home countries, so their voices would be heard.

I went to the West Bank because as a Christian I believe we are called to hunger and thirst for justice and to be peacemakers, like Jesus said. Soon after I became a believer, I learned about the situation of the Palestinian people and have been trying to follow the events there and speaking out where I live. I am also disgusted by the fact that there are Christians who believe the abuses that Israel is committing are somehow justified and in accordance with the Bible... they aren't. I think God placed it on my heart, laugh if you want and it may sound corny but I believe He did. It took many years before I was able to save up enough and go, and inshAllah one day I will go again.

I went to do what I could to help prevent or at least alleviate the violence. I believe Jesus when He said that what is done to victims of poverty and injustice is done to Him, and so I was honoured to do my small part in serving the Palestinian people.

Wherever I go I try to be a witness to my faith, so I wore the cross I normally wear around my neck and there were times when people saw it and would ask me about my faith and wanted to share their beliefs with me, and we'd have some good discussions. I didn't ever initiate the discussions as this was not a 'missions trip', but I did pray to God for oppurtunities to share my faith in Jesus and He provided. I didn't hand out tracts, try to start churches, preach on street corners, ask people to convert if that's what you were wondering. Neither one of the two groups I went with are into that kind of thing either.

My reason for going was to try to do what I could to stop the oppression of the Palestinian people and to serve Jesus and be a witness to Him.

Hope that helps explain.

Originally posted by TG12345

Is it Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh?

Originally posted by Rational

Yes that's it.


Originally posted by TG12345

May the peace, mercy, and blessings of Allah be with you ?

Originally posted by Rational

And that's what it means.

Cool. Thank you for sharing.

Originally posted by TG12345

You wouldn't be seeing if God protects you, you would be seeing if He protects His unsuspecting believing follower who ate 7 dates.
If the hadith is true, you wouldn't be putting that person in harm's way because as long as he had 7 dates, Muhammad said no toxin would harm him. There would be no victim, as long as Muhammad was telling the truth and his teachings really do come from God Himself.

Originally posted by Rational

I know we are seeing if this person would be protected, but because we're trying to see (test) this hadith, Allah might negate this protection, to put us to shame because our faith is weak, otherwise why did we need to test? We should have trusted the words of the messenger because that is what Allah told us. This is testing the validity of the messenger himself. Our victim is enjoying a strawberry cheese cake with poison. Allah knows this (as I've said several times already), and as a result, Allah might not fulfil this divine protection. Why should He (Almighty) prove anything to me or you, fully knowing that a human is being deceived for the purpose of testing the words of His messenger (pbuh).

I can see your point, but would God allow someone innocent to be harmed because another person is trying to test to see if the words of His prophet are correct?

Would it be fair to the person who is a faithful Muslim and tries to follow Muhammad and eats 7 dates in the morning as he recommended to avoid harm from toxins and magic, to be badly harmed by a toxin in spite of what his prophet said?

Originally posted by Rational

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.

Originally posted by TG2345

How so?

Originally posted by Rational

Because you are insisting on deceiving a human into an experiment without their consent. Even if you are fully confident in your antidote ingredient (whatever it may be), you do not have the right to experiment on people without their prior knowledge, in anyway shape or form.

Perhaps, but if the hadith is true the person would not be harmed.

Originally posted by TG12345

Do you share every single ingredient you put into a meal or beverage when your friends come over? Do you give them a breakdown of every vegetable, meat, spice and liquid you used? Or do you just make them a good meal or cup of tea and if they or when they ask how you made it you tell them?

Originally posted by Rational

Exactly, a good meal without poison. Even though you might have full faith in the antidote, it's not a good enough reason to not tell them and do it anyway. It's still poison. And obviously you wouldn't tell them about this particular ingredient. No one would serve a dish and then say "oh I hope you like poison because I added some for you!". You wouldn't add it in the first place. The issue is - you're testing the validity of the messengers advice and doing it on someone else without them knowing. A muslim would not do this.

Why not add a toxin, if according to Muhammad the person would not be harmed anyways? It would only act as a toxin against a person who followed Muhammad's words if these words were not true, and in fact, eating 7 dates first thing in the morning, even if regularly, does not mean, regardless of what Muhammad said, that no toxin can harm the person on that day.

Originally posted by Rational

Would you be fine for me to use you as an experiment (a guinea pig) without you knowing and then tell you "I knew it would work"? Ofcourse not. No one does because it's the way that Allah (Almighty) created us. So why would you be ok to experiment on someone else…. I'm repeating myself many times now.

If Jesus said that eating 7 dates first thing in the morning would ensure that no toxin would harm a person and this was meant for all people and not only people in a specific period in history, then yes, it would be fine of you to do that. Of course, Jesus said no such thing in the Bible.

Originally posted by TG12345

A person who would allow him/herself to be bitten by a poisonous snake or to ingest some botulism would not be killing or even harming him or herself, since the dates would protect them. Allowing a black mamba to bite you after a breakfast of 7 ajwa dates would only be suicidal if Muhammad's advice was wrong.

Originally posted by Rational

We're taking one step forwards ten steps back.

If a person (a fool actually) eats 7 ajwa dates for the sole purpose of testing the validity of the prophets words, then intentionally drinks poison:
1. It's irrational for a person to protect themselves from a danger for the purpose of bringing the very same danger to themselves. If they did, then either a) they are crazy b) they are careless (ie. suicide/self-inflecting injury/st**id etc)
2. Foolishly testing the validity of a messenger of Allah, instead of having unconditional faith in him
3. This fool is not sincerely seeking protection, this fool is seeking trouble

For those reasons, it's unlikely that Allah would fulfil the aid to such a fool. They would most likely die and be forbidden from Heaven. And Allah knows best.

If the 7 dates in the morning protect against toxins, then drinking a toxin would not be purposefully placing oneself in any danger since Muhammad himself stated that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be harmed.

Originally posted by TG12345

If someone were to be dumb or cruel enough to actually carry it out on an unsuspecting Muslim who eats 7 dates in the morning, it would prove that Muhammad's words were wrong, because the person would get very sick and/or die.

Originally posted by Rational

Exactly, we need someone that is cruel. Do you know anyone? Hang-on, now we're cruel because we're looking... This is what I mean, this experiment is impossible! Hence we can't prove anything.

Of course it is possible. It is perhaps unethical, but it is possible.

I think we both know however, that eating 7 ajwa dates first thing in the morning will not protect a person against all toxins. A person on this diet would very much be harmed if not killed by a rattlesnake bite or ingesting botulism, regardless of how the toxin entered their body.

Whether or not such an experiment could or should be done, it is not true that no toxin can harm a person who eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning.

Originally posted by TG12345

They never actually stated that He would always protect them from the snake bites and injury or death that come with them. You haven't read the links I gave you, or you chose to ignore them.

I saw them in a church dancing with snakes and saying Jesus. To me that seems insane regardless of what they say. They are deluded.

Hilarious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ3YfT0Iu9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzA9W1HtGd8

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree with you. However, the videos show their misguidance, and do not disprove what Jesus said in Mark 16.

The Bible also says that we should not put God to the test... yet this is what these people are doing.

The hypothetical experiment I proposed was irrational. One of my reasons for putting it out there was to also show the irrationality of MahditheSeeker's demand that Christians today start picking up black mambas.

This is why I began the thread by stating very clearly it was addressed primarily to him and not to other Muslims on this forum.


I also believe though that the fact that eating 7 dates in the morning will not protect a person from toxins such as botulism or a rattlesnake bite does show that Muhammad was clearly wrong in this statement that he made.
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 1:03am
It would have been good if he had a few dates on that fateful day. It might have saved him a slow and painful death.
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 9:29am

‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

I can see your point, but would God allow someone innocent to be harmed because another person is trying to test to see if the words of His prophet are correct?

We don't know. A muslim does not need to do this.

Originally posted by TG12345

Would it be fair to the person who is a faithful Muslim and tries to follow Muhammad and eats 7 dates in the morning as he recommended to avoid harm from toxins and magic, to be badly harmed by a toxin in spite of what his prophet said?

No it wouldn't but you're not listening. If you want to find out because you are disbelieving, then there is nothing stopping you from being cruel and testing it on someone. Then you can let us all know.

Originally posted by TG12345

If Jesus said that eating 7 dates first thing in the morning would ensure that no toxin would harm a person and this was meant for all people and not only people in a specific period in history, then yes, it would be fine of you to do that. Of course, Jesus said no such thing in the Bible.

Muslims would not support any other muslim that disbelieves the words of the messenger (pbuh). Faith and trust is all that is needed.

Originally posted by TG12345

If the 7 dates in the morning protect against toxins, then drinking a toxin would not be purposefully placing oneself in any danger since Muhammad himself stated that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be harmed.

I'll try one more time because this debate is getting nowhere.

A person that eats 7 dates then deliberately drinks poison, is proving his lack of faith. He is a disbeliever. In doing this act, we can agree that he is disobeying God (unless ofcourse you think he is obeying God, then we'll end it here and move to another thread). Because he is disobeying, why would God come to his rescue?

Originally posted by TG12345

I think we both know however, that eating 7 ajwa dates first thing in the morning will not protect a person against all toxins. A person on this diet would very much be harmed if not killed by a rattlesnake bite or ingesting botulism, regardless of how the toxin entered their body.

No sorry, not both. You might think you know. If the messenger said it, then I have a duty to believe him. I believe that God is capable of anything. I told you before, if the messenger said this, then it's not the dates doing the work, it's Allah. We humans will never be able to scientifically prove if dates protect against all toxins, furthermore we'd need to prove that dates protect against magic. Again science falls short. So it's a matter of faith and trust in Allah (Subhanaho Wa Ta'ala).

I've presented my reasons and don't see anything else to add. If you're still not convinced then we'll just have to leave it.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته



Edited by Rational - 17 January 2013 at 11:48am
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Rational


‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته


Wa antaa aydan.

Originally posted by TG12345

I can see your point, but would God allow someone innocent to be harmed because another person is trying to test to see if the words of His prophet are correct?

Originally posted by Rational

We don't know. A muslim does not need to do this.

If God allowed an innocent person to be harmed, He would be showing him that Muhammad was wrong concerning the dates.

Originally posted by TG12345

Would it be fair to the person who is a faithful Muslim and tries to follow Muhammad and eats 7 dates in the morning as he recommended to avoid harm from toxins and magic, to be badly harmed by a toxin in spite of what his prophet said?

Originally posted by Rational

No it wouldn't but you're not listening. If you want to find out because you are disbelieving, then there is nothing stopping you from being cruel and testing it on someone. Then you can let us all know.

Of course I would never do such a thing. I don't want to have severely harmed or killed a person just to prove Muhammad was wrong.

Originally posted by TG12345

If Jesus said that eating 7 dates first thing in the morning would ensure that no toxin would harm a person and this was meant for all people and not only people in a specific period in history, then yes, it would be fine of you to do that. Of course, Jesus said no such thing in the Bible.

Originally posted by Rational

Muslims would not support any other muslim that disbelieves the words of the messenger (pbuh). Faith and trust is all that is needed.

So you do believe that 7 ajwa dates a day eaten in the morning regularly will protect a person from harm against all toxins?

Originally posted by TG12345

If the 7 dates in the morning protect against toxins, then drinking a toxin would not be purposefully placing oneself in any danger since Muhammad himself stated that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be harmed.

Originally posted by Rational

I'll try one more time because this debate is getting nowhere.

A person that eats 7 dates then deliberately drinks poison, is proving his lack of faith. He is a disbeliever. In doing this act, we can agree that he is disobeying God (unless ofcourse you think he is obeying God, then we'll end it here and move to another thread). Because he is disobeying, why would God come to his rescue?

If the person was doing this to see if God would really save him, this would indeed be an act of disbelief and doubt.

What if he did so to make a powerful proof to a non-Muslim to convince him or her that Muhammad's teachings are indeed true and to bring glory to God?

We both believe the prophets performed miracles (ie Moses with the staff, and Jesus (whom I believe more to be a prophet) raising the dead). The Quran teaches that Pharaoh's men believed Moses was from God after seeing his snake eat theirs.

Clearly, your faith teaches that some non-Muslims were won over by miracles. What if a person allowed himself to intentionally ingest toxin to show to non-Muslims that Muhammad's words are miraculous- that they are from God and can be trusted in any circumstance?

This would then not be a matter of suicide or doubting God, but spreading the message of Islam.

Originally posted by TG12345

I think we both know however, that eating 7 ajwa dates first thing in the morning will not protect a person against all toxins. A person on this diet would very much be harmed if not killed by a rattlesnake bite or ingesting botulism, regardless of how the toxin entered their body.

Originally posted by Rational

No sorry, not both. You might think you know. If the messenger said it, then I have a duty to believe him. I believe that God is capable of anything. I told you before, if the messenger said this, then it's not the dates doing the work, it's Allah. We humans will never be able to scientifically prove if dates protect against all toxins, furthermore we'd need to prove that dates protect against magic. Again science falls short. So it's a matter of faith and trust in Allah (Subhanaho Wa Ta'ala).

I've presented my reasons and don't see anything else to add. If you're still not convinced then we'll just have to leave it.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته



Wa alaykum salaam.

We may have to leave it there then. I am 1000% confident that eating 7 dates a day first thing will not protect a Muslim from all toxins that day. I firmly believe that a person on this diet who would be bitten by a poisonous snake would get very sick and/or die.

This can be easily proven on an unsuspecting Muslim, but I'd never do such a thing because I would never harm another person. Which is what they would suffer... serious harm if not death.. if they were to ingest a poisonous toxin... regardless of what they ate in the morning.

I also believe God is capable of anything. I do not believe He told Muhammad to say that 7 ajwa dates in the morning will prevent all toxins from harming a person.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. If you choose to continue this discussion further I certainly will respond to your points. Otherwise I am alright with letting it end here.


All the best to you, I am sure we will have more discussions on other threads.
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 9:46am
Originally posted by TG12345

I was in the West Bank with 2 groups, one called Christian Peacemaker Teams and the other International Solidarity Movement. Our job was to document the Israeli army's and settler's abuses of Palestinians and when able to, step in and try to prevent them. It worked to an extent, sometimes we were able to get soldiers to stop harrassing people on the streets when they saw we were filming them. We would also share people's stories with others we know back in our home countries, so their voices would be heard.

I went to the West Bank because as a Christian I believe we are called to hunger and thirst for justice and to be peacemakers, like Jesus said. Soon after I became a believer, I learned about the situation of the Palestinian people and have been trying to follow the events there and speaking out where I live. I am also disgusted by the fact that there are Christians who believe the abuses that Israel is committing are somehow justified and in accordance with the Bible... they aren't. I think God placed it on my heart, laugh if you want and it may sound corny but I believe He did. It took many years before I was able to save up enough and go, and inshAllah one day I will go again.

I went to do what I could to help prevent or at least alleviate the violence. I believe Jesus when He said that what is done to victims of poverty and injustice is done to Him, and so I was honoured to do my small part in serving the Palestinian people.

Wherever I go I try to be a witness to my faith, so I wore the cross I normally wear around my neck and there were times when people saw it and would ask me about my faith and wanted to share their beliefs with me, and we'd have some good discussions. I didn't ever initiate the discussions as this was not a 'missions trip', but I did pray to God for oppurtunities to share my faith in Jesus and He provided. I didn't hand out tracts, try to start churches, preach on street corners, ask people to convert if that's what you were wondering. Neither one of the two groups I went with are into that kind of thing either.

My reason for going was to try to do what I could to stop the oppression of the Palestinian people and to serve Jesus and be a witness to Him.

Hope that helps explain.

I respect you for this. I feel you have sincere intentions and I pray that Allah (SWT) blesses and guides you in those efforts. I also want to visit that land one day insha Allah. It is disgusting how the Palestinians are being robbed from their lands while the worlds goes about it's business.

I'm happy to see you want to learn arabic so keep it up if you can. If you manage to read the Quran in arabic one day, you will be pleasantly surprised Insha Allah.

Thanks you for sharing.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by TG12345

I was in the West Bank with 2 groups, one called Christian Peacemaker Teams and the other International Solidarity Movement. Our job was to document the Israeli army's and settler's abuses of Palestinians and when able to, step in and try to prevent them. It worked to an extent, sometimes we were able to get soldiers to stop harrassing people on the streets when they saw we were filming them. We would also share people's stories with others we know back in our home countries, so their voices would be heard.

I went to the West Bank because as a Christian I believe we are called to hunger and thirst for justice and to be peacemakers, like Jesus said. Soon after I became a believer, I learned about the situation of the Palestinian people and have been trying to follow the events there and speaking out where I live. I am also disgusted by the fact that there are Christians who believe the abuses that Israel is committing are somehow justified and in accordance with the Bible... they aren't. I think God placed it on my heart, laugh if you want and it may sound corny but I believe He did. It took many years before I was able to save up enough and go, and inshAllah one day I will go again.

I went to do what I could to help prevent or at least alleviate the violence. I believe Jesus when He said that what is done to victims of poverty and injustice is done to Him, and so I was honoured to do my small part in serving the Palestinian people.

Wherever I go I try to be a witness to my faith, so I wore the cross I normally wear around my neck and there were times when people saw it and would ask me about my faith and wanted to share their beliefs with me, and we'd have some good discussions. I didn't ever initiate the discussions as this was not a 'missions trip', but I did pray to God for oppurtunities to share my faith in Jesus and He provided. I didn't hand out tracts, try to start churches, preach on street corners, ask people to convert if that's what you were wondering. Neither one of the two groups I went with are into that kind of thing either.

My reason for going was to try to do what I could to stop the oppression of the Palestinian people and to serve Jesus and be a witness to Him.

Hope that helps explain.


Originally posted by Rational

I respect you for this. I feel you have sincere intentions and I pray that Allah (SWT) blesses and guides you in those efforts. I also want to visit that land one day insha Allah. It is disgusting how the Palestinians are being robbed from their lands while the worlds goes about it's business.

I'm happy to see you want to learn arabic so keep it up if you can. If you manage to read the Quran in arabic one day, you will be pleasantly surprised Insha Allah.

Thanks you for sharing.


Assalamu alaikum, Rational.

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate how you are honest about your faith and at the same time are respectful to non-Muslims. I haven't sen you swear or curse anyone on here even once. I believe you believe Islam is the truth and you want others to come to it. I believe also that you are sincere and will also pray to Allah for you... although as you know I believe He is in some ways different than what Islam teaches.

Kind of busy now with other stuff to start studying Arabic again, but it is definitely on my 'to do list'. It would be amazing to read the Quran in Arabic. It is a beautiful language, I love not only the sound of it but it also looks so elegant in its writing. Did you know that Arabs were among the first Christians mentioned in the Book of Acts?

Acts 2:5-12

Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12


To clarify something very important, I haven't done much, I was in Israel and Palestine only for 6 weeks, there are people I met in CPT who have spent years there. One day InshAllah I will go back and do more. There have also been people like Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall who have paid for the work they did with their lives. Rachel was crushed with a bulldozer while defending Palestinian homes, Tom was shot in the head while helping Palestinian kids escape from IDF fire. If you haven't heard their names, I would encourage you to go on google and find them.

The people really worthy of respect are those Palestinians and Israelis we met who work every day for a just peace. They have suffered for this in both beatings, arrests, jail time, and also deaths... I am only aware of Palestinians who were killed by the IDF and settlers. I am  unaware of Israelis who were killed defending Palestinians... not that shootings and permanent and life altering brain injuries from plastic bullets that some Israeli activists have suffered aren't terrible also. I met Palestinian Muslims and Christians who are standing up for their rights and the rights of their people and confronting the injustices and taking great risks while refusing to use violence. I met Israeli Jews who have had their families and friends and cast them out for standing up for the Palestinians.


Compared to their work and sacrifices, my 6 weeks is a pathetic joke. We did some good and praise be to God for that, but I'm in no way a 'hero' or worthy of any more respect than anyone else.


I am frustrated by how most of the world ignores the injustices the Palestinians suffer. Since coming back, I have done a presentation in church and at some schools (I am a substitute teacher) and have talked to my friends and have gone to demos and tried to raise awareness...but there is so much apathy and ignorance.

The situation in Palestine is terrible, though it is true also there are other human rights crises that claim even more lives and are ignored. In Arizona, on the US-Mexico border, hundreds of Mexicans and Central Americans die a horrific death trying to cross the desert to get jobs so they can send money back home to support their loved ones. They cross illegally because they are not allowed to enter legally, and to a huge extent the terrible poverty they are trying to escape are caused by economic trade policies shaped by my country (Canada) and the US. People die slow and agonizing deaths from dehydration and hunger, others are robbed and killed by gangs who take advantage of them. Tens of thousands are abused by the US Border Patrol as they are deported to Mexico.

I was able to spend 6 weeks one summer volunteering with a group called No More Deaths that provides water to migrants in the desert. We were there in July and August, when the temperatures would shoot up to forty degrees Celsius. I met people who have been on the brink of death, people whose whole families were destroyed after some bigwigs decided to cut down the price of corn in Mexico by 70%. I was able to visit a refugee camp for deported people, I have heard stories of Border Police kicking people they picked up and forcing children and elderly people to kneel on hot asphalt for half an hour with their hands behind their backs. It was humbling to hear their stories, and made me angry also because as with the case of Palestine, no one cares or even knows.

One amazing story was when 2 Mexican men came to our camp. One was an evangelical pastor and the other a 16 year old Catholic boy. They were traveling to the US to work and were being guided by human smugglers. At one point in the journey their 'coyote' told the group they will have to carry marijuana. If the migrants refused they would be abandoned in the desert... a fate far worse than a bullet in the head. In spite of this, the two of them decided they would not do what they know is wrong, and were abandoned. They wandered for a few days, and when they found our camp they were in an extremely bad state. I think it is possible they would have died had they been out any longer. We managed to feed them and provide them with clothes... the group I was with is very much disliked by the police and many in the US who see the migrants as scum and criminals... but it is not against the law to feed people and offer them humanitarian aid, although we could not transport them. They stayed with us for a while. During this time, the pastor got out his guitar and played me some Praise and Worship songs in Spanish. It was very beautiful. Most of my fellow activists were not Christian (although I highly respect and like them), it was awesome to have a fellow believer for a few days. The two men then left, we got word a few weeks later that they reached their destinations and found work.

If you are interested in checking out the blogs I maintained in Palestine and Arizona and read more about the amazing people I met and their struggle for justice, check out:

www.livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.com

www.northoftheborder-alnortedelafrontera.blogspot.com


Another terrible example of injustice is the terrible poverty and racism suffered in Canada by our First Nations peoples... suffering caused to a huge part by actions of imperialist 'christians' and the horrific legacy of residential schools... where Native kids were placed in by people who abused them in the name of Jesus and punished them for speaking their language. Many families were devastated, and a whole generation was traumatized. Native peoples in our country have the highest rates of alcoholism, crime, poverty and incarceration. There is a lot to do here. As an educator and a volunteer at a drop-in I have the privilege of working with kids from the inner city, many of them native and many of them immigrants who come from countries at war like Somalia. The challenges many of the kids face are almost impossible for many to comprehend. But one thing that God has shown me is His love for them... sometimes the work can be frustrating, especially when violence or bad behaviour happens... and it is easy to get angry or overwhelmed (and I do at times)... but then He reminds me we are all His creation and that He is in them. My wife and I are blessed to go to a church that is located in one of the most impoverished and crime ridden parts of our city, and is choosing to follow Jesus and serve and seek God with and worship Him along with our brothers and sisters in the street, as well as supports opposing injustice. Our pastor has received death threats from gangs for the work he does and was once beaten up by several people for jumping on a person who they were kicking who was on the pavement... their blows fell on him instead of their original victim. Shockingly, the police stood by and did nothing. To them, the guy getting beaten up was 'just another drunk Indian'.

Sorry for all the stories, and I realize I just probably derailed this thread. Oh well, I'm the one who started it. Smile

As a Christian, I believe that God cares about justice in our world, and He hates it when innocent people are taken advantage of, abused and oppressed. This is as true in the West Bank as it is on the US-Mexico as it is in my city as it is in Syria and El Salvador and Chechnya and Egypt.

I love Him for many reasons. One of them is that He sides with the weak and despised and abused rather than with the rich and powerful.


Edited by TG12345 - 19 January 2013 at 8:47pm
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 27 January 2013 at 4:27am
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 In response, I would challenge you to prove Muhammad was right in a very fascinating thing that he said.

Muhammad, whom you believe is a prophet from God, stated that if a person eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by magic or poisons/toxins for that day.

This is documented in the following hadiths.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582


Sahih Muslim

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening.  (Book #023, Hadith #5080)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=dates+poison&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html


Muhammad not only said that 7 dates first thing in  the morning will make sure the person who eats them will not be harmed by poison/toxin or magic that day, but he also made it clear that no poison can harm a person who does this, and that the dates contain healing for all kinds of magic or toxins.


If you believe his words are to be trusted, I would encourage you to test it out. Invite someone from your mosque over for supper or lunch. Make sure they have eaten 7 ajwa dates that morning. Make sure they are from Medina. It's important.

Then have them pet a rattlesnake or black mamba (seems to be your fave kind of serpent), or play with a black widow. Make sure they get bitten.

If Muhammad was right, then the toxins will not harm that person. If they get sick and/or die, I guess that will have proven he was wrong. Either that, or the person you just killed and/or severely harmed wasn't a "real Muslim". Try it on someone else. Just do it quickly, before the police find out and put you in jail for murder, because... in all likelihood... the person will either get very sick or die.


* I hope you do not actually try this challenge, because I don't want to hear of you doing life in a penitentiary or institution. Regardless of what Muhammad stated, dates will not protect you or anyone else from all toxins.


 
 
 To TG12345

 Well we must understand Hadith with the understandings of companions of Prophet Muhammad.Not a single companion understood it like if some one eats Ajwa and then eat poison,it will not effect.Otherwise they would be the first ones to use this Hadith against non-muslims.

 Prophet Muhammad said:

 Whoever takes poison and kills himself, his poison will be in his hand and he will be sipping it in the Fire of Hell for ever and ever. [Narrated byal-Bukhaari, 5442; Muslim,109]

 So clearly Eating poison is killing yourself and it is prohibited, the hadith in discussion means if someone eat dates in the morning with strong certainty and full submission, then if some scorpion or any other poisoning animal bite him by any chance then Insha'Allah no poison will effect him but he should not think that dates will save him but it is Allah who saves.

 Conclusion:

 1- You are not allowed to take poison or anything may harm your body.

 2- 'Ajwa dates is one of the means that prevent being poisioned, With The Permission of Allah.

 3- Being protected against poison by eating these dates is conditional to the will of Allah; if Allah will its effect happen and if He does not Will so then posien will take effect.

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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 29 January 2013 at 2:52pm
Assalamu Alaikum, Mansoor_Ali

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

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 In response, I would challenge you to prove Muhammad was right in a very fascinating thing that he said.

Muhammad, whom you believe is a prophet from God, stated that if a person eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by magic or poisons/toxins for that day.

This is documented in the following hadiths.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582


Sahih Muslim

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening.  (Book #023, Hadith #5080)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=dates+poison&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html


Muhammad not only said that 7 dates first thing in  the morning will make sure the person who eats them will not be harmed by poison/toxin or magic that day, but he also made it clear that no poison can harm a person who does this, and that the dates contain healing for all kinds of magic or toxins.


If you believe his words are to be trusted, I would encourage you to test it out. Invite someone from your mosque over for supper or lunch. Make sure they have eaten 7 ajwa dates that morning. Make sure they are from Medina. It's important.

Then have them pet a rattlesnake or black mamba (seems to be your fave kind of serpent), or play with a black widow. Make sure they get bitten.

If Muhammad was right, then the toxins will not harm that person. If they get sick and/or die, I guess that will have proven he was wrong. Either that, or the person you just killed and/or severely harmed wasn't a "real Muslim". Try it on someone else. Just do it quickly, before the police find out and put you in jail for murder, because... in all likelihood... the person will either get very sick or die.


* I hope you do not actually try this challenge, because I don't want to hear of you doing life in a penitentiary or institution. Regardless of what Muhammad stated, dates will not protect you or anyone else from all toxins.


 
 
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

To TG12345

 Well we must understand Hadith with the understandings of companions of Prophet Muhammad.Not a single companion understood it like if some one eats Ajwa and then eat poison,it will not effect.Otherwise they would be the first ones to use this Hadith against non-muslims.

How they interpreted or did not interpret his words is not the issue, I think. Some Muslims like the author of Islam QA interprets the Quran and hadiths in such a way that for him it is acceptable to physically force non-Muslims who are not People of the Book to accept Islam. Most Muslims I know disagree with his interpretation although unlike him, they are not scholars.

Muhammad said very clearly that those who eat 7 ajwa dates in the morning first thing will not be harmed by toxins or magic. He went as far as to claim that no toxin or magic can harm them.


Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Prophet Muhammad said:

 Whoever takes poison and kills himself, his poison will be in his hand and he will be sipping it in the Fire of Hell for ever and ever. [Narrated byal-Bukhaari, 5442; Muslim,109]

 So clearly Eating poison is killing yourself and it is prohibited,

The hadith says that the person who takes poisons and kills himself will be sipping it in hell forever. If Muhammad's words are true, then the 7 dates would protect a person from toxins. Toxin could only kill a person who ate them before ingesting it, if the hadith was wrong.

There is probably a much safer way to test this out. Eat 7 dates in the morning as Muhammad said, and then allow a bee to sting you. The toxin that is in the bee is relatively harmless and unless you have a bee allergy, you will not die or even be badly hurt.

As you know, bees have toxin. If Muhammad was correct, the toxin should have no effect. There should be no swelling of any kind, which normally happens after a bee sting because this is caused by the low level of toxin that is from the stinger.


Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

the hadith in discussion means if someone eat dates in the morning with strong certainty and full submission, then if some scorpion or any other poisoning animal bite him by any chance then Insha'Allah no poison will effect him but he should not think that dates will save him but it is Allah who saves.

If you truly believe this, eat 7 ajwa dates in the morning with strong certainty and full submission, and then go collect some honey. Make sure you address appropriately so you don't get stung too much or get harmed. Chances are that, like every beekeeper, you will be stung at least once.

If and when you do get stung, examine your arm or whatever part of the body that got stung. If there is absolutely no swelling or pain, it means Muhammad was right and that the toxin has had no effect. If there is swelling, it means that the toxin has affected your body and he was wrong.


 Conclusion:

 

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

1- You are not allowed to take poison or anything may harm your body.

Learn how to work as a beekeer and gather some honey for people at your mosque. It would be a kind and selfless act, and for the most part harmless (beekeepers are stung, but rarely ever harmed) not intentionally inviting harm on yourself. Muhammad said honey is a good thing, and I agree with him on that.


Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

2- 'Ajwa dates is one of the means that prevent being poisioned, With The Permission of Allah.

It is, and according to what Muhammad said, eating 7 of them in the morning will prevent any toxin or magic from harming the person.

 [QUOTE=Mansoor_ali] 3- Being protected against poison by eating these dates is conditional to the will of Allah; if Allah will its effect happen and if He does not Will so then posien will take effect.



I agree with you on that too. If it is God's will, the person will not be harmed and Muhammad's words will be proven right. If it is not, then there will be an effect and we will know that his statement that eating 7 ajwa dates will cause toxins to have no effect on a person to be incorrect.

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