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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Topic: Discussion and challenge to MahditheSeeker
    Posted: 06 January 2013 at 10:23pm
Salaam Alaikum everyone.

This thread is a continuation of the discussion MahditheSeeker and I are having. Although others may jump in if they wish, I would prefer if you didn't since what I have to say to him I do not have to say to other Muslim posters in this forum.



No, I am not going off topic. I answered your "challenge", then presented a challenge of my own. You ignored it for several days, and then feebly accuse me of "going off topic". Let me restate again. Muhammad said that if a person has 7 awja dates first thing in the morning, he or she will be immune from toxins/poisons for the whole day. Have you tried that out with someone from your mosque, like you wanted Christians do try out what is in Mark 16? You also said that if you see Christians today (even one) doing what is described in Mark 16, you will believe the Bible and give your life to Jesus. I showed you examples of Christians handling snakes. Have you converted? Or are you going to run off again and hide?

1.Start a different topic if you want to issue a challenge.
2.I will need a live demonstration from one of those snake handlers with a snake i know is poisonous, preferably a wild black mamba.
3. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"
In the meantime, you can help me find people who can do all the signs mentioned. Once again, i cannot believe based on rumours. talk is cheap. I need a demonstration.
4. In case you want to bring it up, simply handling any snake is nothing special as there are non poisonous snakes, or did the writers of the Bible not know that? It is only special if you survive a snake bite of a poisonous snake.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=10


MahditheSeeker,

Salaam Alaikum. Earlier in that thread you stated that if you find a person doing what is in Mark 16, you will believe the Bible and give your life to Jesus.


bullet Posted: 18 December 2012 at 12:40am
still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=4


bullet Topic: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS
    Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:37pm
MARK 16;15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"

i am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=1


I found and presented examples, reported by news agencies like Daily Mail, Washington Post, and CNN. I also found an article in National Geographic. Very clearly, there are Christians who handle poisonous snakes.

For your convenience, I will repost what I have written, with the links.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153933/Revealed-The-secretive-deadly-church-services-Appalachias-serpent-handlers-lift-rattlesnakes-heads-drink-poison-God.html#ixzz1wnVo5c1t


James Nye from Mail Online visited a pentecostal church in the US whose members have handled poisonous snakes and drank strychinine during servcies... and continue to do so. It is one of many such churches, which takes Mark 16:15 literally and believes it applies to believers in the 20th/21st century.

Between 1920s and when this article was written, around 100 church snake bite related deaths have been documented. However, thousands have handled these snakes.

It is estimated that up to 100 people have died in the 100 or so years since the practice began, which supporters claim is a small number considering thousands of worshipers have handled thousands of deadly snakes in that time.

Also, the snake handlers also take in strychinine.

Aware of the public fascination with serpent handling, Wolford wanted to use his platform to spread his beliefs to a new younger congregation.

But, even if holding the rattlesnakes and copperheads wasn't dangerous enough, serpent handlers also ingest deadly strychnine during services.

'In my life I’ve probably drunk two gallons of it,' said Wolford.

National Geographic interviewed Tom Burton, a professor who studied such churches and attended their services for over 30 years. He claims only certain individuals commonly handled such serpents. Commonly handled would mean they do this pretty regularly.

Tom Burton, a professor emeritus at East Tennessee State University, has attended many snake-handling services and studied the practice for over 30 years. He's the author of Serpent Handling Believers, an authoritative study of the belief. Burton says that much of what goes on at such churches would be familiar to other Christians. "If you were there when they were not taking up serpents, or even during other parts of a service where they did, it would be like many other Pentecostal groups," he explained. "There is singing, preaching, laying on of hands, praying, testifying, and that sort of thing. It's kind of an expressive church service where people freely share emotions, a very participatory service like most Pentecostal services."

But those anointed by the Holy Spirit answer the calling by taking up the deadly reptiles or by drinking poisons. Burton said: "Only certain individuals commonly handle serpents, and it goes without saying that they warn people: 'If you're not directed by the Holy Ghost to do this, you'd better not.'"


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers_2.html

The snake handling, poison drinking church has been visited by many reporters, researches, tv crews and photographers.

For years, this tiny church in an unincorporated hamlet of 1,191 souls has been world-famous for its death-defying handlers of serpents. Reporters, researchers, photographers and TV crews have come here to track Pentecostals who brandish poisonous snakes, drink strychnine and play with fire as a testimony of their faith.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-11-10/lifestyle/35281689_1_snake-handlers-drink-strychnine-wolford

Here is a CNN video of church members handling deadly snakes during a service in the Appalachia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwBVcsWYJd8


http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=7

Your challenge was answered, I gave you examples of Christians handling deadly snakes. Why do you insist on a live demonstration? Do you believe CNN, National Geographic, Daily Mail and Washington Post made the stories up? Can you show me evidence of that?

Why do you insist on a black mamba? Don't you know that rattlesnakes are poisonous?

Initially you didn't have anything to say about black mambas, live demos, or someone who fulfills all the signs. Mark 16:16 does not say that all of these signs will accompany every believer. One should be enough for you.

I answered your original challenge by providing documented evidence of Christians who handle deadly snakes, one of the signs of the believers in Mark 16. You said if you could find just one person in the world doing that, you would convert.

Mark 16 did not say poisonous snakes, neither does it say that those who do so will die or be harmed, it does not even say anything about people being bitten by poisonous snakes or surviving. You are adding to your original challenge, which already has been answered btw.

However, one of the guys who handled the snake at church was bitten several times and did not die the first few times.

This is from the Associated Press.

Wolford had been bitten on three previous occasions, but did not seek medical attention as he regarded the injury as a test of faith.

“He helped me to understand the faith instead of just documenting it,” photographer and eyewitness Lauren Pond told the Washington Post. “He was one of the most open pastors I’ve ever met. He was a friend and a teacher.”

“I didn’t see the bite, I saw the aftermath” she added.


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pastor-killed-in-rattlesnake-attack-during-church-service.html?fb_action_ids=10150816679266292,4048657581909&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_ref=type:read,user:nft9J0TxTi8Bc9gGretcsw8PA8w,type:read,user:TStIxT3A80X-4T4hxVUOubSNIDs&fb_source=other_multiline

Here is another story, of a Christian man being bitten by a rattlesnake and surviving.

An Axton man still is recovering from a near-fatal rattlesnake bite he suffered May 3.

Ernest Marlowe was unavailable Friday to do an interview about a rattlesnake bite, according to his wife, Peggy Marlowe. But she recounted what happened so the public will know that rattlesnakes and copperheads are in the Mountain Valley community. ...

Ernest Marlowe kept a positive attitude, even cutting up with nurses at times, his wife said. "He showed no signs of being afraid. I was terrified," she said. "He said he thought he was going to make it."� And if even he didn't, he told his crying sister, he would get to see his parents in heaven sooner, Peggy Marlowe said. She said of her husband's survival: "I know prayer did it. ... He was so close to death." During the ordeal, she called "prayer warriors" - including her preacher, family members and friends - and asked them to pray for her husband. "I've seen too many things that prayer answered that doctors can't explain," she said. Ernest Marlowe also is "thankful the Lord saved his life," his wife said. "I thank he realizes how close he came to dying and appreciates the little things more" now.


http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/article.cfm?ID=13991

And another story, quite disturbing. A deranged pastor who forced his wife to put her hand into a jar or rattlesnakes. She was bitten twice... and survived. Her husband went to jail for murder, and inshAllah will never see the light of day again.

Former Snakehandling Preacher Escapes Prison Briefly

Man In Prison For Trying To Kill Wife With Snake

The Associated Press/February 25, 2003

Childersburg, Ala. -- A former snakehandling preacher, serving a 99-year sentence for trying to kill his wife with a rattlesnake, escaped briefly from a work detail.

Prison officials said Glenn Summerford, who has served about 11 years of his sentence, slipped away from the work detail for about 45 minutes Friday before being returned to custody. He then was moved from the work center at Childersburg to the state prison in St. Clair County.

Summerford, 58, was convicted of attempted murder in 1992 after his wife, Darlene, testified that he grabbed her by the hair and forced her to put her hand in a cage of rattlesnakes after hitting it with a pipe to make the snakes mad. She was bitten twice but survived.

Summerford at the time handled snakes as pastor of the Church of Jesus With Signs Following near Scottsboro.


http://www.rickross.com/reference/snake/snake6.html


Unless you believe that this is all "rumour" and that all of the news articles I posted were fabricated, there is definitely proof that Christians who handle snakes or even come into contact with poisonous snakes can get bitten by them and survive.

So your 4th point

In case you want to bring it up, simply handling any snake is nothing special as there are non poisonous snakes, or did the writers of the Bible not know that? It is only special if you survive a snake bite of a poisonous snake. 

has been answered... even though you did not say this (or any of the other points) in your original challenge... which has been answered.



If I demanded you keep your word I would demand you give your life to Jesus but I wouldn't do such a thing... I want you and all people to do it because they believe, not because they made rash challenge and lost.



Now, a challenge along the lines of the challenge you threw out to Christians. You claimed that people who cannot do the things in Mark 16 are "pretend believers", although I have shown you opinion of Biblical scholars that Mark 16:16 applied mostly to the early church.

In response, I would challenge you to prove Muhammad was right in a very fascinating thing that he said.

Muhammad, whom you believe is a prophet from God, stated that if a person eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by magic or poisons/toxins for that day.

This is documented in the following hadiths.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582


Sahih Muslim

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening.  (Book #023, Hadith #5080)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=dates+poison&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html


Muhammad not only said that 7 dates first thing in  the morning will make sure the person who eats them will not be harmed by poison/toxin or magic that day, but he also made it clear that no poison can harm a person who does this, and that the dates contain healing for all kinds of magic or toxins.


If you believe his words are to be trusted, I would encourage you to test it out. Invite someone from your mosque over for supper or lunch. Make sure they have eaten 7 ajwa dates that morning. Make sure they are from Medina. It's important.

Then have them pet a rattlesnake or black mamba (seems to be your fave kind of serpent), or play with a black widow. Make sure they get bitten.

If Muhammad was right, then the toxins will not harm that person. If they get sick and/or die, I guess that will have proven he was wrong. Either that, or the person you just killed and/or severely harmed wasn't a "real Muslim". Try it on someone else. Just do it quickly, before the police find out and put you in jail for murder, because... in all likelihood... the person will either get very sick or die.


* I hope you do not actually try this challenge, because I don't want to hear of you doing life in a penitentiary or institution. Regardless of what Muhammad stated, dates will not protect you or anyone else from all toxins.








Edited by TG12345 - 06 January 2013 at 11:08pm
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 07 January 2013 at 10:05am
Your challenge was answered, I gave you examples of Christians handling deadly snakes. Why do you insist on a live demonstration? Do you believe CNN, National Geographic, Daily Mail and Washington Post made the stories up? Can you show me evidence of that? Why do you insist on a black mamba? Don't you know that rattlesnakes are poisonous? Initially you didn't have anything to say about black mambas, live demos, or someone who fulfills all the signs. Mark 16:16 does not say that all of these signs will accompany every believer. One should be enough for you. I answered your original challenge by providing documented evidence of Christians who handle deadly snakes, one of the signs of the believers in Mark 16. You said if you could find just one person in the world doing that, you would convert. Mark 16 did not say poisonous snakes, neither does it say that those who do so will die or be harmed, it does not even say anything about people being bitten by poisonous snakes or surviving. You are adding to your original challenge, which already has been answered btw. However, one of the guys who handled the snake at church was bitten several times and did not die the first few times.

so i am supposed to believe based on something any tom, dick and harry can do. i assumed the snake had to be poisonous and bite me. i guess that was my mistake.




‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)
do not go believing everything you find in any hadith book.
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 07 January 2013 at 12:04pm
Assalamo Alaikom,

Sorry but I have to jump in. Your example about someone doing an experiment and poisoning themselves is false, irrelevant  and does not prove anything with respect to the hadieth by Mohammad (pbuh). 

First, it's not the 7 dates that protects, it's Allah (SWT) that is protecting, because they followed the advice given by the Messenger (pbuh). That shows trust in the Messenger (pbuh) and this pleases Allah (SWT). 

Second, it's not logical or intelligent for someone to expect that Allah (SWT) would protect them against a danger that they intentionally brought to themselves. Why would someone seek protection against a danger that they choose for themselves? Only a fool would do such a thing. Allah (SWT) told us not to kill ourselves, "And do not kill yourselves (29)". Therefore, it would not be wise to expect Allah (SWT) to give aid to those that intentionally harm themselves because we are told against it.

As the saying goes,
"You've Dug Your Grave, Now Lie in It"

The Prophet (pbuh) gave this advice to those that are seeking protection against unforeseen and unpredictable dangers. His words (pbuh) are to be trusted.



Edited by Rational - 07 January 2013 at 4:49pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 4:40am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Your challenge was answered, I gave you examples of Christians handling deadly snakes. Why do you insist on a live demonstration? Do you believe CNN, National Geographic, Daily Mail and Washington Post made the stories up? Can you show me evidence of that? Why do you insist on a black mamba? Don't you know that rattlesnakes are poisonous? Initially you didn't have anything to say about black mambas, live demos, or someone who fulfills all the signs. Mark 16:16 does not say that all of these signs will accompany every believer. One should be enough for you. I answered your original challenge by providing documented evidence of Christians who handle deadly snakes, one of the signs of the believers in Mark 16. You said if you could find just one person in the world doing that, you would convert. Mark 16 did not say poisonous snakes, neither does it say that those who do so will die or be harmed, it does not even say anything about people being bitten by poisonous snakes or surviving. You are adding to your original challenge, which already has been answered btw. However, one of the guys who handled the snake at church was bitten several times and did not die the first few times.

so i am supposed to believe based on something any tom, dick and harry can do. i assumed the snake had to be poisonous and bite me. i guess that was my mistake. [/QUOTE}
We all make mistakes, no worries.

The wife of the pastor who tried to murder her was bitten by poisonous rattlesnakes though. So was the guy who was bitten and almost died. As was the other pastor who was bitten a few times and survived the first few.

Perhaps you should retract your challenge? Wink



[QUOTE=Mahdi The Seeke]‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)
do not go believing everything you find in any hadith book.

Again, the hadiths of Musnad Ahmad are highly regarded as being genuine. What about what Muhammad said in hadith Muslim?

Even if one wants to argue that according to the hadiths 663 and 664 in Bukhari Muhammad is merely saying that dates have healing effects for some things and do not protect against poisons- which I don't believe is the case, and I haven't seen him say anything in the hadiths to clarify this- hadith Muslim states very clearly that he believed no poisons will harm someone who had 7 of these dates in the morning.

Unless you can show me that this hadith is a weak one or fabricated (and can also show me this about the hadith in Musnad Ahmad's collection) I am afraid my point still stands that this is something he clearly said.

Salaam.

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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 4:49am
Originally posted by Rational

Assalamo Alaikom,

Sorry but I have to jump in. Your example about someone doing an experiment and poisoning themselves is false, irrelevant  and does not prove anything with respect to the hadieth by Mohammad (pbuh). 

First, it's not the 7 dates that protects, it's Allah (SWT) that is protecting, because they followed the advice given by the Messenger (pbuh). That shows trust in the Messenger (pbuh) and this pleases Allah (SWT). 

Second, it's not logical or intelligent for someone to expect that Allah (SWT) would protect them against a danger that they intentionally brought to themselves. Why would someone seek protection against a danger that they choose for themselves? Only a fool would do such a thing. Allah (SWT) told us not to kill ourselves, "And do not kill yourselves (29)". Therefore, it would not be wise to expect Allah (SWT) to give aid to those that intentionally harm themselves because we are told against it.

As the saying goes,
"You've Dug Your Grave, Now Lie in It"

The Prophet (pbuh) gave this advice to those that are seeking protection against unforeseen and unpredictable dangers. His words (pbuh) are to be trusted.



Wa alaikum salaam, rational. I presented this challenge in response to MahditheSeeker's challenge to Christians. The Bible also tells Christians to not put our Lord God to the test (Luke 4:12). When Paul was bitten by the snake and shook it off into the fire, he also did not play with it intentionally.

Since I am aware of Islam's prohibition on suicide, I suggested that a way to test the hadiths would be to offer someone else who has eaten 7 dates a rattlesnake or black mamba or black widow spider and have the person bitten. To make it not an issue of suicide on their part, do it in a way they wouldn't know until they got bit. Your subject wouldn't be committing a suicidal act.

If the hadith is correct, they wouldn't be harmed or die.

Not a test I would encourage anyone to do, because I don't believe that eating 7 dates in the morning would protect a person from harm against a toxin. I think if you had an unsuspecting person who eats 7 dates in the morning bitten by a poisonous snake or unknowingly ingest a poisonous or toxic substance, he or she would die or at least get very sick or harmed, regardless of what Muhammad said, not to be rude.




Edited by TG12345 - 08 January 2013 at 7:00pm
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 7:24am
Assalamo alaikom warahmato Allah

We need to be clear on something before moving on. Self harming goes against islam, even when the person is not attempting a suicidal act. Harming the body in any way is unlawful in Islam. The act of self harm is an irrational act and if anyone thinks that Allah (SWT) is pleased to see anyone harming themselves then they are fools.

Allah (SWT) said:
"and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining] (195)"

Originally posted by TG12345

When Paul was bitten by the snake and shook it off into the fire, he also did not play with it intentionally.

But the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing it intentionally. Some have died. They were doing this in the name of Jesus (pbuh) but they still died. The excuse they give is "it was their time to die". That makes perfect sense. It was just a coincidence. Moving on…

Originally posted by TG12345

Since I am aware of Islam's prohibition on suicide, I suggested that a way to test the hadiths would be to offer someone else who has eaten 7 dates a rattlesnake or black mamba or black widow spider and have the person bitten. To make it not an issue of suicide on their part, do it in a way they wouldn't know until they got bit. Your subject wouldn't be committing a suicidal act.

I must say, I haven't laughed this much in a while. Not to be rude.

Alright, we can't prove this on ourselves because as we explained earlier, seeking protection then harming yourself is foolish, so this is out of the question. What other options do we have? Yes try it on someone else.

So let's see, for this experiment we need a human "subject". We need to ensure that the subject eats 7 dates in the morning. Then, without the subject looking (otherwise it won't work), we place a poisonous snake next to them and hope for the best. Once we have a successful bite, we tell the subject how we lied and deceived them into….

Wait, are you suggesting that I commit sin?

Edited by Rational - 09 January 2013 at 8:56am
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 5:51pm
Sounds like two guys headed for Fla for the sake of a challenge. I guess the first one to post after wins. Don't forget to take the figs along.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 4:24am
Originally posted by Rational

Assalamo alaikom warahmato Allah

We need to be clear on something before moving on. Self harming goes against islam, even when the person is not attempting a suicidal act. Harming the body in any way is unlawful in Islam. The act of self harm is an irrational act and if anyone thinks that Allah (SWT) is pleased to see anyone harming themselves then they are fools.

Allah (SWT) said:
"and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining] (195)"

The Bible says the same.

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?  You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price.  Therefore honor God with your body," (1 Cor. 6:19-20).

This verse is speaking about sexual immorality and how it damages the body, but it is clear that our bodies are from God and we are not allowed to damage them. This would include other means of course.


Originally posted by TG12345

When Paul was bitten by the snake and shook it off into the fire, he also did not play with it intentionally.


Originally posted by Rational

But the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing it intentionally. Some have died. They were doing this in the name of Jesus (pbuh) but they still died. The excuse they give is "it was their time to die". That makes perfect sense. It was just a coincidence. Moving on…

Not sure what your point here is. People have done st**id things in the name of Islam and other religions too, Christianity is no different in that sense.


Originally posted by TG12345

Since I am aware of Islam's prohibition on suicide, I suggested that a way to test the hadiths would be to offer someone else who has eaten 7 dates a rattlesnake or black mamba or black widow spider and have the person bitten. To make it not an issue of suicide on their part, do it in a way they wouldn't know until they got bit. Your subject wouldn't be committing a suicidal act.

Originally posted by Rational

I must say, I haven't laughed this much in a while. Not to be rude.

Alright, we can't prove this on ourselves because as we explained earlier, seeking protection then harming yourself is foolish, so this is out of the question. What other options do we have? Yes try it on someone else.

So let's see, for this experiment we need a human "subject". We need to ensure that the subject eats 7 dates in the morning. Then, without the subject looking (otherwise it won't work), we place a poisonous snake next to them and hope for the best. Once we have a successful bite, we tell the subject how we lied and deceived them into….

Wait, are you suggesting that I commit sin?


Again, the challenge was in response to MahditheSeeker's challenge to Christians that we do what is in Mark 16, and his claim that he can't find a 'real Christian' because none of us can do that... in spite of the fact that these signs were for the most part described in the Book of Acts and most Christians believe this was meant only for the early church.

It was to him, not to all Muslims because I didn't see other posters here making such 'challenges' to Christians.

But going back to my "challenge" (which is a response to the "challenge" posted by MahditheSeeker), you wouldn't be sinning by having your subject bitten because according to what Muhammad said, nothing would happen to him. He wouldn't even be harmed! If you were able to extract some rattlesnake venom and put it into his or her drink or meal, they probably wouldn't even notice because according to the hadiths as long as they had their 7 dates in the AM no toxin could harm them!

And if you want to make sure they do not feel any comfort or displeasure or even notice you put something in their food, you can use  botulism! It is odorless! Tasteless! Also one of the most deadliest toxins in existence... but according to what Muhammad taught it would have no effect on a person who had 7 ajwa dates.

http://iaith.tapetrade.net/botulism/

You wouldn't be deceiving your subject in any way, you would just be adding an ingredient to a meal or drink. It is odorless and tasteless... and if Muhammad was right... completely harmless to someone who had 7 dates before breakfast.



In regards to "lying" or "deceiving" your subject with the snakes, you could just say you were doing an experiment to show that Muhammad's words are true and accurate. After all, it's not like you would have harmed him or her in any way. If you use botulism, there is nothing to explain because if Muhammad's advice is true, it would be just another ingredient that wouldn't cause your friend any harm and they wouldn't even notice.



Again, this "challenge" was meant for MahditheSeeker, and is a response to his "challenge". That is why I opened this thread for discussion between me and him.


Edited by TG12345 - 10 January 2013 at 8:19pm
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