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786SalamKhan
 
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Quote 786SalamKhan Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2013 at 10:46am
Wa Alaikum,

Originally posted by TG12345


I have to admit I am confused, and there is something I am definitely not understanding, maybe you can help me. The Sunnah from what I read are the legal ways, orders, statements, acts of worship from Muhammad, right? The hadiths are collections of things that he said and did, is that correct?

If the hadiths and Sunnah are two different things, my question then is where can you read the Sunnah? Where can you read about the life of Muhammad and his teachings? I mistakenly assumed this was the hadith, I guess I was wrong.

Also, how do you know that 4:65 and 24:54 refer to the Sunnah and not the hadiths?

http://www.islamawareness.net/Hadith/authenticity1.html

Originally posted by TG12345


If Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths are not the Sunnah, then what is? Where can I read it? Can you provide any links?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sunni_books#Islamic_jurisprudence

Originally posted by TG12345


They are interesting. There are some minor variations in Bible versions, but nothing that has any huge impact on Christian theology.

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31511
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U4JWNEc
http://www.answering-christianity.com/at.htm

Originally posted by TG12345


So what is the Gospel? This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11

So you actually trust Paul's teachings? Well that explains alot.......
On another note:
'Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6'

This is explaining Paul's Gospel not Jesus'.......

Originally posted by TG12345


Thank you for yours. Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean that you concede. What are you conceding to?

What I meant was because I withdrawed so I'm neutral with instead of against you(In debate), that kind of concession.



Edited by 786SalamKhan - 23 January 2013 at 11:08am
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum,

Wa alaikum salaam.

Originally posted by TG12345


I have to admit I am confused, and there is something I am definitely not understanding, maybe you can help me. The Sunnah from what I read are the legal ways, orders, statements, acts of worship from Muhammad, right? The hadiths are collections of things that he said and did, is that correct?

If the hadiths and Sunnah are two different things, my question then is where can you read the Sunnah? Where can you read about the life of Muhammad and his teachings? I mistakenly assumed this was the hadith, I guess I was wrong.

Also, how do you know that 4:65 and 24:54 refer to the Sunnah and not the hadiths?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

http://www.islamawareness.net/Hadith/authenticity1.html

Thanks for the link. Is it right to assume that since what matters is the Quran and Sunnah, a Muslim can then reject most of what is in Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths?

Is following the hadiths just a good idea, or is accepting them crucial to salvation in Islam?

In other words, can a Muslim reject them and as long as he follows the Sunna and Quran still be a Muslim?

Originally posted by TG12345


If Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths are not the Sunnah, then what is? Where can I read it? Can you provide any links?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sunni_books#Islamic_jurisprudence

Thanks for the link. Are you saying that Muslims are more obligated to follow what is in Bashar El Shariat then what is in Bukhari and Muslim?

For example, can a Muslim reject this statement as false:

(1) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  (Book #7, Hadith #331)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=%22nation+only%22&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

and still be a Muslim? Why or why not? Thanks.

Originally posted by TG12345


They are interesting. There are some minor variations in Bible versions, but nothing that has any huge impact on Christian theology.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31511
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U4JWNEc
http://www.answering-christianity.com/at.htm

Feel free to bring up one of these arguments if you want and we can discuss it.

Originally posted by TG12345


So what is the Gospel? This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

So you actually trust Paul's teachings? Well that explains alot.......
On another note:
'Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6'

This is explaining Paul's Gospel not Jesus'.......

Yes, I trust Paul's teachings. I have no reason not to. He was an amazing and courageous person who went from being a persecutor of the early church to one of its leaders, after he met Jesus.


Notice the verse you quoted:


'Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6'


Paul was accepted by Christ's followers and worked with them to build the early church. He suffered beatings, mockings, imprisonment, and eventually death for his faith.


Originally posted by TG12345


Thank you for yours. Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean that you concede. What are you conceding to?


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

What I meant was because I withdrawed so I'm neutral with instead of against you(In debate), that kind of concession.


I'm not sure I understand, what are you neutral on? In either case, I wanted to say I enjoy our debates and if you want to continue I look forward to talking more.
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Quote 786SalamKhan Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 11:42pm
Wa Alaikum,

Originally posted by TG12345


Thanks for the link. Is it right to assume that since what matters is the Quran and Sunnah, a Muslim can then reject most of what is in Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths?

Is following the hadiths just a good idea, or is accepting them crucial to salvation in Islam?

In other words, can a Muslim reject them and as long as he follows the Sunna and Quran still be a Muslim?

http://www.muftisays.com/viewarticle.php?article=zntaqleed

Originally posted by TG12345


Thanks for the link. Are you saying that Muslims are more obligated to follow what is in Bashar El Shariat then what is in Bukhari and Muslim?

For example, can a Muslim reject this statement as false:

(1) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  (Book #7, Hadith #331)

and still be a Muslim? Why or why not? Thanks.


That is not what I'm saying. It is better to follow the Madhabs (Schools of Thought) than Hadith when following the Sunnah. Not every muslim has access to the Hadith but an average muslim has access to the Quran and Sunnah not by text but at least through his teacher. You asked where to read so I provided a list of books, I recommend for you Muwatta which can be found online.
Of course you can accept Hadith not just completely reject it especially one as important as that hadith. You just need the proper guidance or knowledge.

Originally posted by TG12345


Feel free to bring up one of these arguments if you want and we can discuss it.

Do they not have any impact on Christian theology? They also forgot to mention when Thomas saw Christ he called out to G-d and Christ praised him for that and other believers in G-d even though he had not taught them and that David is called begotten son in Psalms. And what about salvation for Moses and Abraham? Surely they never worshiped the Trinity and Malachi says G-d does not change.
Originally posted by TG12345


Yes, I trust Paul's teachings. I have no reason not to. He was an amazing and courageous person who went from being a persecutor of the early church to one of its leaders, after he met Jesus.

Paul was accepted by Christ's followers and worked with them to build the early church. He suffered beatings, mockings, imprisonment, and eventually death for his faith.

Well just because Paul saw Jesus alive he started preaching his Divinity, Paul abolished Moses' law even though Jesus came to fulfill it so how would he be a follower of Jesus? And there was that time with Timothy's circumcision even though both our religions do not permit homosexuality...
Paul also taught that Christ died for all humanity's sins so it wouldn't even matter if anyone is non-Christian right?

Originally posted by TG12345


I'm not sure I understand, what are you neutral on?


LOLNever mind.


Edited by 786SalamKhan - 24 January 2013 at 11:45pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum,

Peace be upon you as well.

Originally posted by TG12345


Thanks for the link. Is it right to assume that since what matters is the Quran and Sunnah, a Muslim can then reject most of what is in Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths?

Is following the hadiths just a good idea, or is accepting them crucial to salvation in Islam?

In other words, can a Muslim reject them and as long as he follows the Sunna and Quran still be a Muslim?

[/QUOTE]

http://www.muftisays.com/viewarticle.php?article=zntaqleed

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan


Thanks. From what I understand, think that the sahih hadiths contain the Sunna and that a Muslim cannot reject it, is that correct or did I misunderstand completely?




Originally posted by TG12345


Thanks for the link. Are you saying that Muslims are more obligated to follow what is in Bashar El Shariat then what is in Bukhari and Muslim?

For example, can a Muslim reject this statement as false:

(1) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  (Book #7, Hadith #331)

and still be a Muslim? Why or why not? Thanks.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

That is not what I'm saying. It is better to follow the Madhabs (Schools of Thought) than Hadith when following the Sunnah. Not every muslim has access to the Hadith but an average muslim has access to the Quran and Sunnah not by text but at least through his teacher. You asked where to read so I provided a list of books, I recommend for you Muwatta which can be found online.
Of course you can accept Hadith not just completely reject it especially one as important as that hadith. You just need the proper guidance or knowledge.

Can I ask you what makes the hadith above important? Do we know for sure that Muhammad said this? If so, is it binding for a Muslim to believe this?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I am curious what you and other think of this.

I will definitely read through the Muwatta, thank you for sharing it with me.

Originally posted by TG12345


Feel free to bring up one of these arguments if you want and we can discuss it.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Do they not have any impact on Christian theology?

Let's look at these claims one by one.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

They also forgot to mention when Thomas saw Christ he called out to G-d and Christ praised him for that and other believers in G-d even though he had not taught them

I don't understand what you mean by this. Christ did not teach Thomas and other believers what? That He is God? He did so by saying He and the Father are one, that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, by saying He will judge the world, many other things.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

and that David is called begotten son in Psalms.

Can you please show me the verse you are referring to?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And what about salvation for Moses and Abraham? Surely they never worshiped the Trinity and Malachi says G-d does not change.

God does not change. God also reveals Himself over time. He did not reveal He is a Trinity until He came down as Jesus. He refers to Himself in the plural sense throughout the New Testament, and He did personally come down and wrestle with Israel... and let him win. However, He didn't reveal He is a Trinity until the New Testament.

Did God reveal the Quran right away, or do you believe He revealed it with Muhammad and the prophets before him were given other books?

Originally posted by TG12345


Yes, I trust Paul's teachings. I have no reason not to. He was an amazing and courageous person who went from being a persecutor of the early church to one of its leaders, after he met Jesus.

Paul was accepted by Christ's followers and worked with them to build the early church. He suffered beatings, mockings, imprisonment, and eventually death for his faith.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Well just because Paul saw Jesus alive he started preaching his Divinity,

Yes. You could say that just because Muhammad saw Gabriel according to your faith, he started preaching Islam.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Paul abolished Moses' law even though Jesus came to fulfill it so how would he be a follower of Jesus?

This is what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17,18

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Jesus fulfilled the Law. He claimed that not one dot will pass from it until it is accomplished. This is what He did on the earth.

When He rose, the Law had been fulfilled by Him. All had been accomplished.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And there was that time with Timothy's circumcision even though both our religions do not permit homosexuality...

I don't understand the connection between circumcision and homosexuality...


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Paul also taught that Christ died for all humanity's sins so it wouldn't even matter if anyone is non-Christian right?
Originally posted by TG12345


Ephesians 2:8,9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Jesus died on the cross for all mankind. But we are saved by believing in Him.

Originally posted by TG12345

I'm not sure I understand, what are you neutral on?


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

LOLNever mind.


OK. Sorry, I can be kind of slow at times... Embarrassed


Edited by TG12345 - 25 January 2013 at 6:49pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:59pm
Salaam Alaikum, 786SalaamKhan,

I have just began reading Malik's Muwatta, and came across something very interesting that Muhammad said.

Section: The Intestines of the Kafir


Book 49, Number 49.6.9:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj that Abu Hurayra said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'The muslim eats in one intestine, and the kafir eats in seven!' "


Book 49, Number 49.6.10:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Suhayl ibn Abi Salih from his father from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave hospitality to a kafir guest. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered a sheep to be brought for him and it was milked. He drank its milk. Then another came, and he drank it. Then another came and he drank it until he had drunk the milk of seven sheep. In the morning he became muslim, and the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered a sheep for him. It was milked and he drank its milk. Then he ordered another for him and he could not finish it. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The mumin drinks in one intestine, and the kafir drinks in seven intestines."

http://malikmuwatta.blogspot.ca/2008/03/book-49-description-of-prophet-may.html


If Malik's Muwatta contains the Sunna (which is stronger than the hadiths if I understand correctly), then Muhammad truly said this.

As you probably know, every human being has not one or seven but two intestines. The small intestine and the large intestine. Food goes through both the small intestine and the large intestine, although the indigestible food goes into the large one.

Both Muslims and non-Muslims, when we eat, have food go into first the small intestine, and then whatever is left (after the good stuff has been absorbed into our blood).. the indigestible waste left over... goes into the large intestine.

Non-Muslims do not eat with seven intestines. Like Muslims, we only have two. Muslims do not eat with only one intestine... both the small and large intestines absorb food that we had eaten.


http://www.news-medical.net/health/What-Does-the-Large-Intestine-Do.aspx

http://www.news-medical.net/health/What-Does-the-Small-Intestine-Do.aspx

http://www.chp.edu/CHP/organs+intestine


Edited by TG12345 - 25 January 2013 at 9:47pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2013 at 8:25pm
Salaam Alaikum, 786Salaam Khan,

I just came across another interesting Sunnah.

Muhammad said allegedly that there is no harm in eating what was cast up by the sea.

Was he aware that there are certain types of fish that are very poisonous, and which should not be eaten as they may cause great harm, even death?

http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/faq/fishfaq1c.html


Ciguatera poisoning is the most common nonbacterial, fish-borne poisoning in the United States. It is caused by consumption of reef fish that feed on certain dinoflagellates (ie, algae) associated with coral reef systems. At least 5 types of ciguatoxin have been identified and are noted to accumulate in larger and older fish higher up the food chain.

Ciguatera poisoning has been a significant concern in tropical areas for centuries and generally is believed to be confined to coral reef fish in water between the latitudes of 35 degrees north and 35 degrees south. One study of the impact of climate changes on ciguatera producing organisms has suggested that elevations of sea surface temperatures may expand the band of concern above and below the 35th degree parallels.[1] Ironically, it also suggested that some areas may become too warm for the dinoflagellates to flourish. But, in the modern era of world travel and rapid transportation, many warm-water fish are available commercially in markets throughout the world, and cases of ciguatera poisoning may be seen in any location.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/813869-overview




Section: Game of the Sea


Book 25, Number 25.3.9:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abd ar-Rahman ibn Abi Hurayra asked Abdullah ibn Umar about eating what was cast up by the sea and he forbade him to eat it. Then Abdullah turned and asked for a Qur'an, and read, "The game of the sea and its flesh are halal for you." Nafi added, "Abdullah ibn Umar sent me to Abdar-Rahman Ibn Abi Hurayra to say that there was no harm in eating it."


Book 25, Number 25.3.10:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam that Sad al-Jari, the mawla of Umar ibn al-Khattab asked Abdullah ibn Umar about fish which had killed each other or which had died from severe cold . He said, "There is no harm in eating them.'' Sad said,' 'I then asked Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al As and he said the same."


Book 25, Number 25.3.11:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman from Abu Hurayra and Zayd ibn Thabit that they saw no harm in eating what was cast up by the sea.


Book 25, Number 25.3.12:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman that some people from al-Jar came to Marwan ibn al-Hakam and asked him about eating what was cast up by the sea. He said, "There is no harm in eating it." Marwan said, "Go to Zayd ibn Thabit and Abu Hurayra and ask them about it, then come to me and tell me what they say." They went to them and asked them, and they both said, "There is no harm in eating it " They returned to Marwan and told him. Marwan said, "I told you."

Malik said that there was no harm in eating fish caught by magians, because the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "In the sea's water is purity, and that which is dead in it is halal. "

Malik said, "If it is eaten when it is dead, there is no harm in who catches it."




Edited by TG12345 - 25 January 2013 at 8:31pm
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Quote 786SalamKhan Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2013 at 12:59am
Wa Alaikum, I hope you are well.

Originally posted by TG12345


Yes. You could say that just because Muhammad saw Gabriel according to your faith, he started preaching Islam.

The difference is that Gabriel taught him that he is a Prophet, Christ only asked Paul why he is persecuting him not that he is Divine etc.

Originally posted by TG12345


I don't understand the connection between circumcision and homosexuality...

He sucked the blood from Timothy's penis(I can't believe I had to say it!) I mean why not use a cloth instead!?

Originally posted by TG12345


Thanks. From what I understand, think that the sahih hadiths contain the Sunna and that a Muslim cannot reject it, is that correct or did I misunderstand completely?

No you are not wrong but I wanted you to read the response to Dr Zakir Naik's claims unless you did and I misunderstood you?

Originally posted by TG12345


Can I ask you what makes the hadith above important? Do we know for sure that Muhammad said this? If so, is it binding for a Muslim to believe this?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I am curious what you and other think of this.


It's a known part of Islamic theology that Muhammad(PBUH) is sent unto all mankind, it's part of law that a muslim can pray anywhere clean etc.

Originally posted by TG12345


I have just began reading Malik's Muwatta, and came across something very interesting that Muhammad said.

Section: The Intestines of the Kafir


LOLYou take that literally?

Originally posted by TG12345



I just came across another interesting Sunnah.

Muhammad said allegedly that there is no harm in eating what was cast up by the sea.

Was he aware that there are certain types of fish that are very poisonous, and which should not be eaten as they may cause great harm, even death?

It's a known fact that fish is halal to eat, and it's also known one should not eat anything harmful because that is against common sense!

Originally posted by TG12345


Can you please show me the verse you are referring to?

Psalm 2:7

I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.


Originally posted by TG12345


God does not change. God also reveals Himself over time. He did not reveal He is a Trinity until He came down as Jesus. He refers to Himself in the plural sense throughout the New Testament, and He did personally come down and wrestle with Israel... and let him win. However, He didn't reveal He is a Trinity until the New Testament.

Did God reveal the Quran right away, or do you believe He revealed it with Muhammad and the prophets before him were given other books?


Losing to Jacob and claiming that no one has seen him and lived? Changing his entire nature and method of salvation? What is this!?

However Muhammad and all the prophets brought the same message and method of salvation which is to submit one's will to Allah.

Originally posted by TG12345


I don't understand what you mean by this. Christ did not teach Thomas and other believers what? That He is God? He did so by saying He and the Father are one, that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, by saying He will judge the world, many other things.

When Thomas saw Jesus was still alive he called out to G-d and Christ praised him for doing so and praised others who believe in G-d even though they had not seen him.
1. Jesus and "the Father" are one in each other with purpose, Jesus is under G-d's will.
2. There is a saying in Islam that Allah is beautiful and that you could see Allah's beauty through the beauty of his creation (Allah knows best).
Also:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090909012139AAlOtbj
3. In Islam Jesus will kill Dajjal and stay on earth as a leader beside Mahdi that is what is meant by judge.

Originally posted by TG12345


Ephesians 2:8,9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Jesus died on the cross for all mankind. But we are saved by believing in Him.


So in the end Jesus "dying for all mankind" means nothing as in most religions people are saved through belief, but that also means Christians can sin as long as they believe? Doesn't the Trinity demote God from Universal to only Human? The Doctrines of Trinity and Atonement make no sense whatsoever to me.

Originally posted by TG12345


Let's look at these claims one by one.

I merely wanted to know your opinion but you still believe in the trinity so like I said: "What's the point?"

Matthew 15:9.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.





Edited by 786SalamKhan - 26 January 2013 at 5:20am
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum, I hope you are well.

Wa alaikum salaam! I am, thanks! Sorry for the delay in response!

Originally posted by TG12345


Yes. You could say that just because Muhammad saw Gabriel according to your faith, he started preaching Islam.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

The difference is that Gabriel taught him that he is a Prophet, Christ only asked Paul why he is persecuting him not that he is Divine etc.


That is true, but then He sent Ananias to baptize him. I think that during these three days Jesus either spoke to Paul (we He did send Paul a vision as he was praying), or Ananias told him the Gospel.

We know that Ananias did tell Paul that God appointed him to know His will and to see the Righteous One. The Bible doesn't say exactly where and how Paul was told of Christ's divinity and crucifixion and resurrection, but it does say God sent him Ananias and we know He spoke to him during his three days of blindness. For me that is evidence enough to believe He spoke to Paul and revealed the Truth to him.

Acts 9:9-19

But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened.


Acts 22:12-16

12 “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’



Originally posted by TG12345


I don't understand the connection between circumcision and homosexuality...

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

He sucked the blood from Timothy's penis(I can't believe I had to say it!) I mean why not use a cloth instead!?

How do you know how Timothy was circumcised? The Bible doesn't say this.

Making a connection between circumcision and homosexuality is like connecting circumcision with pedophilia and sadism, since the person who does it looks at a naked boys genitals and then cuts them.

Clearly Paul had no erotic feelings for Timothy or any other man for that matter.
 
Originally posted by TG12345


Thanks. From what I understand, think that the sahih hadiths contain the Sunna and that a Muslim cannot reject it, is that correct or did I misunderstand completely?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

No you are not wrong but I wanted you to read the response to Dr Zakir Naik's claims unless you did and I misunderstood you?

OK, so do we agree that the Sunna is Muhammad's words that are recorded in the sahih hadiths?

Originally posted by TG12345


Can I ask you what makes the hadith above important? Do we know for sure that Muhammad said this? If so, is it binding for a Muslim to believe this?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I am curious what you and other think of this.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

It's a known part of Islamic theology that Muhammad(PBUH) is sent unto all mankind, it's part of law that a muslim can pray anywhere clean etc.

So you are absolutely certain that he said this?

(4) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  (Book #7, Hadith #331)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=mankind&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0

Would this be considered part of the Sunnah?



Originally posted by TG12345


I have just began reading Malik's Muwatta, and came across something very interesting that Muhammad said.

Section: The Intestines of the Kafir


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

LOLYou take that literally?

Did he indicate anywhere it was meant to be taken metaphorically?

What would you say of this statement:

"An intelligent person uses all seven of his heads but a fool uses only two of them"

See any problems with it? If so, what would they be?

Originally posted by TG12345



I just came across another interesting Sunnah.

Muhammad said allegedly that there is no harm in eating what was cast up by the sea.

Was he aware that there are certain types of fish that are very poisonous, and which should not be eaten as they may cause great harm, even death?


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

It's a known fact that fish is halal to eat, and it's also known one should not eat anything harmful because that is against common sense!


If that is the case, it is not true that the game of the sea and its flesh is halal. This is only true of game in the sea and flesh that is not poisonous.

Muhammad could just have easily said

"Most of the game of the sea and its flesh are halal for most of you."

Did Muhammad say that liquids are halal for people? Why not? Could it be because a liquid can be alcohol or poison as well as water or grape juice?

Originally posted by TG12345


Can you please show me the verse you are referring to?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Psalm 2:7

I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

These words were not spoken by David, but by the Messiah.

Psalm 2:7-12

I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
    today I have begotten you.
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
    and the ends of the earth your possession.
You shall breakb]">[b] them with a rod of iron
    and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
    be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
    and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
    lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
    for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Originally posted by TG12345


God does not change. God also reveals Himself over time. He did not reveal He is a Trinity until He came down as Jesus. He refers to Himself in the plural sense throughout the New Testament, and He did personally come down and wrestle with Israel... and let him win. However, He didn't reveal He is a Trinity until the New Testament.

Did God reveal the Quran right away, or do you believe He revealed it with Muhammad and the prophets before him were given other books?



Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Losing to Jacob and claiming that no one has seen him and lived?

No one who has seen God's face and lived. When God presented Himself to Jacob, He presented Himself as a man.

http://www.gotquestions.org/seen-God.html

Jacob did not see God in His full glory.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Changing his entire nature and method of salvation? What is this!?

Not changing His nature, but revealing Himself more and more. He did not change His method of salvation either, but also gradually revealed it to people.

As a Muslim I don't see why you have a problem with this.

Did God reveal the Quran right away to the first messenger? Does this mean that because He allegedly used different books (most of which were corrupted or lost as you believe), He kept changing what was in them?


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

However Muhammad and all the prophets brought the same message and method of salvation which is to submit one's will to Allah.

According to the Quran. There is no way to check whether this is true or not because all of the other books were corrupted or lost... in spite of the fact that Christians and Jews are instructed to look into two of them for descriptions of Muhammad which were allegedly removed earlier by others.

Originally posted by TG12345


I don't understand what you mean by this. Christ did not teach Thomas and other believers what? That He is God? He did so by saying He and the Father are one, that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, by saying He will judge the world, many other things.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

When Thomas saw Jesus was still alive he called out to G-d and Christ praised him for doing so and praised others who believe in G-d even though they had not seen him.


John 20:27-29

27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Thomas called Jesus "my Lord and my God". Thomas was praised for believing in Jesus.


Barnes' Notes on the Bible

My Lord and my God - In this passage the name God is expressly given to Christ, in his own presence and by one of his own apostles. This declaration has been considered as a clear proof of the divinity of Christ, for the following reasons:

1. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment.

2. The language was addressed to Jesus himself - "Thomas ...said unto him."

3. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. If he had not been divine, it is impossible to reconcile it with his honesty that he did not rebuke the disciple. No pious man would have allowed such language to be addressed to him. Compare Acts 14:13-15; Revelation 22:8-9.

4. The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? It was this declaration, and this only. If this was a mere exclamation of surprise, what proof was it that Thomas believed? Before this he doubted. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God.

5. If this was not the meaning of Thomas, then his exclamation was a mere act of profaneness, and the Saviour would not have commended him for taking the name of the Lord his God in vain. The passage proves, therefore, that it is proper to apply to Christ the name Lord and God, and thus accords with what John affirmed in John 1:1, and which is established throughout this gospel.

http://bible.cc/john/20-28.htm

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

1. Jesus and "the Father" are one in each other with purpose, Jesus is under G-d's will.

He didn't say they are one in purpose, He said He and the Father are one.

Did Muhammad say he and Allah are one?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

2. There is a saying in Islam that Allah is beautiful and that you could see Allah's beauty through the beauty of his creation (Allah knows best).

Did Muhammad say that those who have seen him have seen Allah?

A person I once met had a beautiful German shepherd. Would it not be problematic if I pointed to it and said "those who have seen this dog have seen God"?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Also:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090909012139AAlOtbj

I read through them. Anyone in particular you want to bring up and discuss?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

3. In Islam Jesus will kill Dajjal and stay on earth as a leader beside Mahdi that is what is meant by judge.

Matthew 25:31-49 does not speak of Jesus and Mahdi (or Him and anyone else for that matter) staying on earth as leaders. It also makes it very clear that He will decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

Does Islam teach that a human will decide who spends eternity in heaven and who will spend eternity in hell?


Originally posted by TG12345


Ephesians 2:8,9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Jesus died on the cross for all mankind. But we are saved by believing in Him.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

So in the end Jesus "dying for all mankind" means nothing as in most religions people are saved through belief,

Obviously, one's faith needs to be in Jesus.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

but that also means Christians can sin as long as they believe?

Not at all. The Holy Spirit convicts us. Those who live in sin do not have God.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Doesn't the Trinity demote God from Universal to only Human?

No. The Trinity teaches He exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As the Son (Jesus), God lived on earth as both man and God.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

The Doctrines of Trinity and Atonement make no sense whatsoever to me.

Why not?


Originally posted by TG12345


Let's look at these claims one by one.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

I merely wanted to know your opinion but you still believe in the trinity so like I said: "What's the point?"

Matthew 15:9.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.



Jesus was not saying that He should not be worshiped in this passage.

Of course I believe the Trinity. The Bible teaches it plainly.


Edited by TG12345 - 28 January 2013 at 4:45pm
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