Wa alaikum salaam.

Thanks for the link. Is it right to assume that since what matters is the Quran and Sunnah, a Muslim can then reject most of what is in Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths?

Is following the hadiths just a good idea, or is accepting them crucial to salvation in Islam?

In other words, can a Muslim reject them and as long as he follows the Sunna and Quran still be a Muslim?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sunni_books#Islamic_jurisprudence

Thanks for the link. Are you saying that Muslims are more obligated to follow what is in Bashar El Shariat then what is in Bukhari and Muslim?

For example, can a Muslim reject this statement as false:

(1) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  (Book #7, Hadith #331)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=%22nation+only%22&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

and still be a Muslim? Why or why not? Thanks.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31511
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U4JWNEc
http://www.answering-christianity.com/at.htm

Feel free to bring up one of these arguments if you want and we can discuss it.

Originally posted by TG12345


So what is the Gospel? This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

So you actually trust Paul's teachings? Well that explains alot.......
On another note:
'Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, ² and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

³  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴ that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁵ and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ^6'

This is explaining Paul's Gospel not Jesus'.......

Yes, I trust Paul's teachings. I have no reason not to. He was an amazing and courageous person who went from being a persecutor of the early church to one of its leaders, after he met Jesus.


Notice the verse you quoted:


'Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, ² and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

³  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴ that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁵ and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ^6'

Paul was accepted by Christ's followers and worked with them to build the early church. He suffered beatings, mockings, imprisonment, and eventually death for his faith.

Originally posted by TG12345


Thank you for yours. Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean that you concede. What are you conceding to?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

What I meant was because I withdrawed so I'm neutral with instead of against you(In debate), that kind of concession.

I'm not sure I understand, what are you neutral on? In either case, I wanted to say I enjoy our debates and if you want to continue I look forward to talking more.

Peace be upon you as well.

[/QUOTE]

http://www.muftisays.com/viewarticle.php?article=zntaqleed

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan


Thanks. From what I understand, think that the sahih hadiths contain the Sunna and that a Muslim cannot reject it, is that correct or did I misunderstand completely?

Originally posted by TG12345


Thanks for the link. Are you saying that Muslims are more obligated to follow what is in Bashar El Shariat then what is in Bukhari and Muslim?

For example, can a Muslim reject this statement as false:

(1) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  (Book #7, Hadith #331)

and still be a Muslim? Why or why not? Thanks.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

That is not what I'm saying. It is better to follow the Madhabs (Schools of Thought) than Hadith when following the Sunnah. Not every muslim has access to the Hadith but an average muslim has access to the Quran and Sunnah not by text but at least through his teacher. You asked where to read so I provided a list of books, I recommend for you Muwatta which can be found online.
Of course you can accept Hadith not just completely reject it especially one as important as that hadith. You just need the proper guidance or knowledge.

Can I ask you what makes the hadith above important? Do we know for sure that Muhammad said this? If so, is it binding for a Muslim to believe this?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I am curious what you and other think of this.

I will definitely read through the Muwatta, thank you for sharing it with me.

Originally posted by TG12345


Feel free to bring up one of these arguments if you want and we can discuss it.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Do they not have any impact on Christian theology?

Let's look at these claims one by one.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

They also forgot to mention when Thomas saw Christ he called out to G-d and Christ praised him for that and other believers in G-d even though he had not taught them

I don't understand what you mean by this. Christ did not teach Thomas and other believers what? That He is God? He did so by saying He and the Father are one, that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, by saying He will judge the world, many other things.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

and that David is called begotten son in Psalms.

Can you please show me the verse you are referring to?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And what about salvation for Moses and Abraham? Surely they never worshiped the Trinity and Malachi says G-d does not change.

God does not change. God also reveals Himself over time. He did not reveal He is a Trinity until He came down as Jesus. He refers to Himself in the plural sense throughout the New Testament, and He did personally come down and wrestle with Israel... and let him win. However, He didn't reveal He is a Trinity until the New Testament.

Did God reveal the Quran right away, or do you believe He revealed it with Muhammad and the prophets before him were given other books?

Originally posted by TG12345


Yes, I trust Paul's teachings. I have no reason not to. He was an amazing and courageous person who went from being a persecutor of the early church to one of its leaders, after he met Jesus.

Paul was accepted by Christ's followers and worked with them to build the early church. He suffered beatings, mockings, imprisonment, and eventually death for his faith.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Well just because Paul saw Jesus alive he started preaching his Divinity,

Yes. You could say that just because Muhammad saw Gabriel according to your faith, he started preaching Islam.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Paul abolished Moses' law even though Jesus came to fulfill it so how would he be a follower of Jesus?

This is what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17,18

¹⁷ “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ¹⁸ For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Jesus fulfilled the Law. He claimed that not one dot will pass from it until it is accomplished. This is what He did on the earth.

When He rose, the Law had been fulfilled by Him. All had been accomplished.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And there was that time with Timothy's circumcision even though both our religions do not permit homosexuality...

I don't understand the connection between circumcision and homosexuality...

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Paul also taught that Christ died for all humanity's sins so it wouldn't even matter if anyone is non-Christian right?

Originally posted by TG12345


Ephesians 2:8,9

⁸ For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ⁹ not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Jesus died on the cross for all mankind. But we are saved by believing in Him.

Originally posted by TG12345

I'm not sure I understand, what are you neutral on?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Never mind.

OK. Sorry, I can be kind of slow at times...


Edited by TG12345 - 25 January 2013 at 6:49pm

Salaam Alaikum, 786Salaam Khan,

I just came across another interesting Sunnah.

Muhammad said allegedly that there is no harm in eating what was cast up by the sea.

Was he aware that there are certain types of fish that are very poisonous, and which should not be eaten as they may cause great harm, even death?

http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/faq/fishfaq1c.html

Ciguatera poisoning is the most common nonbacterial, fish-borne poisoning in the United States. It is caused by consumption of reef fish that feed on certain dinoflagellates (ie, algae) associated with coral reef systems. At least 5 types of ciguatoxin have been identified and are noted to accumulate in larger and older fish higher up the food chain.

Ciguatera poisoning has been a significant concern in tropical areas for centuries and generally is believed to be confined to coral reef fish in water between the latitudes of 35 degrees north and 35 degrees south. One study of the impact of climate changes on ciguatera producing organisms has suggested that elevations of sea surface temperatures may expand the band of concern above and below the 35th degree parallels.^[1] Ironically, it also suggested that some areas may become too warm for the dinoflagellates to flourish. But, in the modern era of world travel and rapid transportation, many warm-water fish are available commercially in markets throughout the world, and cases of ciguatera poisoning may be seen in any location.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/813869-overview

Section: Game of the Sea

---

Book 25, Number 25.3.9:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abd ar-Rahman ibn Abi Hurayra asked Abdullah ibn Umar about eating what was cast up by the sea and he forbade him to eat it. Then Abdullah turned and asked for a Qur'an, and read, "The game of the sea and its flesh are halal for you." Nafi added, "Abdullah ibn Umar sent me to Abdar-Rahman Ibn Abi Hurayra to say that there was no harm in eating it."

---

Book 25, Number 25.3.10:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam that Sad al-Jari, the mawla of Umar ibn al-Khattab asked Abdullah ibn Umar about fish which had killed each other or which had died from severe cold . He said, "There is no harm in eating them.'' Sad said,' 'I then asked Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al As and he said the same."

---

Book 25, Number 25.3.11:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman from Abu Hurayra and Zayd ibn Thabit that they saw no harm in eating what was cast up by the sea.

---

Book 25, Number 25.3.12:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman that some people from al-Jar came to Marwan ibn al-Hakam and asked him about eating what was cast up by the sea. He said, "There is no harm in eating it." Marwan said, "Go to Zayd ibn Thabit and Abu Hurayra and ask them about it, then come to me and tell me what they say." They went to them and asked them, and they both said, "There is no harm in eating it " They returned to Marwan and told him. Marwan said, "I told you."

Malik said that there was no harm in eating fish caught by magians, because the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "In the sea's water is purity, and that which is dead in it is halal. "

Malik said, "If it is eaten when it is dead, there is no harm in who catches it."

Edited by TG12345 - 25 January 2013 at 8:31pm

Wa alaikum salaam! I am, thanks! Sorry for the delay in response!




That is true, but then He sent Ananias to baptize him. I think that during these three days Jesus either spoke to Paul (we He did send Paul a vision as he was praying), or Ananias told him the Gospel.

We know that Ananias did tell Paul that God appointed him to know His will and to see the Righteous One. The Bible doesn't say exactly where and how Paul was told of Christ's divinity and crucifixion and resurrection, but it does say God sent him Ananias and we know He spoke to him during his three days of blindness. For me that is evidence enough to believe He spoke to Paul and revealed the Truth to him.

Acts 9:9-19

9 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest ² and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. ³ Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. ⁴ And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” ⁵ And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. ⁶ But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” ⁷ The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. ⁸ Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. ⁹ And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

¹⁰ Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” ¹¹ And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, ¹² and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” ¹³ But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. ¹⁴ And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” ¹⁵ But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. ¹⁶ For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” ¹⁷ So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” ¹⁸ And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; ¹⁹ and taking food, he was strengthened.

Acts 22:12-16

¹² “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, ¹³ came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. ¹⁴ And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; ¹⁵ for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. ¹⁶ And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

How do you know how Timothy was circumcised? The Bible doesn't say this.

Making a connection between circumcision and homosexuality is like connecting circumcision with pedophilia and sadism, since the person who does it looks at a naked boys genitals and then cuts them.

Clearly Paul had no erotic feelings for Timothy or any other man for that matter.
 


OK, so do we agree that the Sunna is Muhammad's words that are recorded in the sahih hadiths?



So you are absolutely certain that he said this?

(4) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  (Book #7, Hadith #331)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=mankind&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0

Would this be considered part of the Sunnah?





Did he indicate anywhere it was meant to be taken metaphorically?

What would you say of this statement:

"An intelligent person uses all seven of his heads but a fool uses only two of them"

See any problems with it? If so, what would they be?





If that is the case, it is not true that the game of the sea and its flesh is halal. This is only true of game in the sea and flesh that is not poisonous.

Muhammad could just have easily said

"Most of the game of the sea and its flesh are halal for most of you."

Did Muhammad say that liquids are halal for people? Why not? Could it be because a liquid can be alcohol or poison as well as water or grape juice?

These words were not spoken by David, but by the Messiah.

Psalm 2:7-12