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Interfaith Dialogue
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum,

Hadith like majority of the New Testament, Majority of the Tanakh and the Talmud isn't divine. It will obviously conflict and contradict itself in some places, many hadith are fabricated but not all are.

Alaikum Salaam, 786SalaamKhan.

If you will notice, the only hadiths I cite are from Bukhari and Muslim. Most Muslims consider them to be an accurate description of what Muhammad said.

3 - Sahih Al-Bukhari

Imam Bukhari had written several books, but his most distinguished work was this compilation of ahadith book titled as ‘ al Jaama’e al Sahih Al Musnad min Hadith Rasool Allah sws wa Sunnahi wa Ayyamihi’. Imam Bukhari was inspired by his most beloved teacher Imam Ishaq ibn Rahwayh (161 – 238 H, was muhaddith, faqih, and the Imam of Khurasan of his time) to compile a book that contains only Sahih ahadith. In this book Imam Bukhari collected only those ahadith that fulfilled all the criterion of soundness and reliability of ‘isnad’ and ‘matan’.

 

From the collected ahadith, Imam Bukhar had inferred the biography of Rasool Allah sws and the principles of ‘fiqh’ (jurisprudence). This book is divided into 97 chapters, that are further subdivided into 3450 chapters. In all this book contains 7275 ahadith. If the repeated ahadith are omitted then the number falls down to 4000 only.

 

Uncountable commentaries and ‘Sharuh’ (explanations) have been written for this ‘Sahih al-Bukari’, the most prominent one is that of Hafiz ibn Hajar Assqalani, titled as ‘ Fath al-Bari’.

 

4 - Sahih Muslim

It is the second most authentic hadith collection after Sahih Al-Bukhari, and is highly acclaimed book. Out of 300,000 hadith which he evaluated, approximately 4,000 were extracted for inclusion into his collection based on stringent acceptance criteria. Each report in his collection was checked and the veracity of the chain of reporters was painstakingly established. Muslim is divided into 43 books,containing a total of 7190 narrations. It is estimated that there are a total of 4000 hadiths (without repetition) in Sahih Muslim.

 

In this ‘Sahih’ Imam Muslim collected those ahadith which are narrated by at least two narrators of all the periods right from him to that of the Prophet sws. For Imam Muslim all the narrators should not only be honest but he hould fulfill all the conditions of being a witness. In this book 218 ‘Sahaaba’ (companions) are included as narrators, whereas in Sahih al-Bukhari this number is 208.

 

A large number of commentaries and ‘Sharuh’ (explanations) have been written for Sahih Muslim. These include Al-Dibaj ela Sahih Muslim by Imam Jalaluddin Sauti or Sharah Muslim by Mulla Ali Qari.

 

The creditability of this Sahih can be judged by the opinion of some of the scholars who rate this book over Sahih Bukhari.


http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=1325
 

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Again not all of the Torah and the Gospels are corrupted which is why the Quran says to look in the scriptures for the unlettered Prophet. The Quran also criticizes Christians for believing the Trinity and the Divine Sonship of Jesus but we know that not all christians believe these things. Most of the time anything that contradicts the Quran is false so 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them' probably refers to Bible verses that do not contradict the Quran but are also not mentioned in the Quran.

If the Torah and Gospel are books that have been lost, yet parts of them remain in certain scriptures, which scriptures was Muhammad referring to? Which scriptures that Christians and Jews read in the time of Muhammad contain anything about Muhammad? You used the word "Bible verses". Do you believe that the Bible is a corrupted version of the Injil and Torah? If that is the case, where in the Bible (New Testament or Old Testament) is anything said about Muhammad?

The Bible clearly says that Jesus is divine and that He is the Son of God. The teaching of the Trinity is derived from the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are God.

Also, where does the Quran say Christians changed their Scriptures? I know Ibn Abbas said this, he also said in his tafsirs that Christians and Jews have the Injil and Torah with them. He was obviously contradicting himself. Did Muhammad or the author of the Quran who you believe to be God say that? Thanks.

Is there an authentic hadith that says that the Scriptures that Christians have contain traces of the Torah and Injil, as many Muslims claim?

Again, if the Gospel was lost at the time of Muhammad and there were only copies with half truths, it makes no sense for God to have instructed Waraqa to be translating them.

The charge against the Jews who changed the Torah was thrown against the Jews of the time of Muhammad, as the tafsir of Ibn Abbas shows. Is there evidence of changes to the Torah in the 7th century?


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

We both worship G-d yet why is he allowing us to continue in this discussion? Same with Waraqa. Allah gave us free will.

He did. I don't see the point you are getting at though.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Fair enough the New Testament does claim enough evidence for christians to believe in the Trinity. But anytime Jesus would pray who exactly is he worshiping or praying to? Himself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5upXp-8xHAY


The video made me laugh at some points, I have to admit. The speaker offered $5000 to anyone who could find Jesus saying He is God in the Bible.

He said very clearly that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. Did Muhammad ever say that those who have seen him have seen Allah? Or did Adam or Moses or Abraham, in either the Bible or Quran ever say that? Of course not!

Jesus was God in the flesh.

The speaker can keep his money, but he should read the Bible better before he talks about what it says on tv. :)

John 14:1-14

14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a]">[a] believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?b]">[b] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.”c]">[c] Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.d]">[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask mee]">[e] anything in my name, I will do it.


Jesus voluntarily made Himself inferior to the Father, though He was in the form of God. So He prayed to the Father.

Why did He do this? On earth, He was both man and God. As man He prayed to God. He also set a good example for Christians.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Well there is no known evidence for me or other muslims to provide about the Injil, but it's a good thing this is the InterFAITH section.

True, but if I came to you and said that the Quran you have today is not the real Quran but earlier on there was a book called the "Message" whose message was lost but traces of it can be found in what you refer to as the Quran, you would probably demand evidence right? ;)

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

There is not much known evidence for what both our religions claim such as Adam and Noah(PBUT) but we still believe.

True, but there was little to no traces of books existing back then. That is not the case with early Christianity and early Islam.

 
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Now It's known in the New Testament and the Talmud that Jesus(PBUH) was a Galilean or Nazarean Jew who taught things to others which were unknown or foreign to the Rabbis etc. Is this not proof of a new law? The Injil perhaps? Again, Allah knows best.

Jesus did not come to change the Law but to fulfill it. He explained its meaning and revealed the full truth. He exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leadership at that time and explained the truth to those really looking for it. However, He did not at any time receive a book and there is no evidence whatsoever of such a book existing.

Also, there is historical proof for the crucifixion of Jesus, from both Christian and non-Christian sources.

Jesus' crucifixion was recorded by the Roman historian Tacitus, who although is widely respected for the accuracy of his works, was also very anti-Christian and would not have been influenced by the early church.

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the Bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements Which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero From the infamy of being believed to have ordered the Conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he Falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were Hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was Put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign Of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things Hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their Center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first Made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an Immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of Firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.html

There is no evidence however for a book called the Injil ever existing.
[/QUOTE]

Edited by TG12345 - 18 January 2013 at 9:42pm
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Quote 786SalamKhan Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 7:23am

Wa Alaikum,

Originally posted by TG12345



If you will notice, the only hadiths I cite are from Bukhari and Muslim. Most Muslims consider them to be an accurate description of what Muhammad said.


However hadith are not divine and will contain mistakes whether they are unchanged or not.

Originally posted by TG12345


If the Torah and Gospel are books that have been lost, yet parts of them remain in certain scriptures, which scriptures was Muhammad referring to? Which scriptures that Christians and Jews read in the time of Muhammad contain anything about Muhammad? You used the word "Bible verses". Do you believe that the Bible is a corrupted version of the Injil and Torah? If that is the case, where in the Bible (New Testament or Old Testament) is anything said about Muhammad?

Deuteronomy 18:18

King James Version (KJV)

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Brethren immediately suggests Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites, Midianites or Ishmaelites. Later translations say among Israel but how did brethren transform into Israel? Unless the actual hebrew word is Y'srael for both.

Muhammad also performed miracles like Moses such as the splitting of the moon.

Deuteronomy 34:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

In the night of Isra and Miraj Muhammad spoke to Allah himself about the prayers.

Originally posted by TG12345


Also, where does the Quran say Christians changed their Scriptures? I know Ibn Abbas said this, he also said in his tafsirs that Christians and Jews have the Injil and Torah with them. He was obviously contradicting himself. Did Muhammad or the author of the Quran who you believe to be God say that? Thanks.

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)

 

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran 3:78)

 

And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made! (Quran 3:187)


Originally posted by TG12345


He did. I don't see the point you are getting at though.

You asked why Allah would allow falsehoods to be written and I said because of free will. Waraqa was no Prophet and he didn't have any direct or spiritual contact with G-d, just influence.

No disrespect but to be honest I can't even be bothered to reply to the rest or reply anymore. I'm not gonna convince you and you're not gonna convince me. I'm not a good debater, usually when I have a religious debate with either muslim or non muslim it leads to nowhere or the other person ends up insulting, cursing or attacking me personally. What's the point? I've been a better questioner than a answerer.

Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated.- Confucius



Edited by 786SalamKhan - 20 January 2013 at 10:56am
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum,

Peace be upon you as well.

Originally posted by TG12345


If you will notice, the only hadiths I cite are from Bukhari and Muslim. Most Muslims consider them to be an accurate description of what Muhammad said.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

However hadith are not divine and will contain mistakes whether they are unchanged or not.

I understand there is a substantial difference between the Quran and hadiths. Islam teaches the Quran was revealed by God to Muhammad through Gabriel, while the hadiths are his teachings that God revealed to him but are not part of the Quran.

However, as we both know the Quran tells its followers to defer to Muhammad for decisions. People can't have any real faith until their souls make no resistance to Muhammad's decisions and accept them with fullest conviction.

4:65

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Muslims are called to obey God and to obey Muhammad, according to the Quran. He preaches the clear message. This verse also says this duty was placed on him by God.

24:54

Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

If authentic hadith (like Bukhari and Muslim, as you will notice I am not quoting Abu Dawud or others that some see as suspect) contain mistakes, aren't you saying that the clear message God gave him is full of mistakes?

If I am wrong in any of this (ie that God does not tell people that what Muhammad told them is from Him and it must be followed if one is to follow God as these ayahs say) please correct me.

Originally posted by TG12345


If the Torah and Gospel are books that have been lost, yet parts of them remain in certain scriptures, which scriptures was Muhammad referring to? Which scriptures that Christians and Jews read in the time of Muhammad contain anything about Muhammad? You used the word "Bible verses". Do you believe that the Bible is a corrupted version of the Injil and Torah? If that is the case, where in the Bible (New Testament or Old Testament) is anything said about Muhammad?


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Deuteronomy 18:18

King James Version (KJV)

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Brethren immediately suggests Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites, Midianites or Ishmaelites. Later translations say among Israel but how did brethren transform into Israel? Unless the actual hebrew word is Y'srael for both.

Thanks for bringing this up. Let's examine Deuteronomy 18:18 in the context of the chapter. As you will surely agree, it is important to read texts in the proper context... when this doesn't happen you have Christians who make errors about the Quran and Muslims who make errors about the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18

18 “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offeringsa]">[a] as theirb]">[b] inheritance. They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them. And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from those offering a sacrifice, whether an ox or a sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach. The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him. For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for all time.

“And if a Levite comes from any of your towns out of all Israel, where he lives—and he may come when he desiresc]">[c]—to the place that the Lord will choose, and ministers in the name of the Lord his God, like all his fellow Levites who stand to minister there before the Lord, then he may have equal portions to eat, besides what he receives from the sale of his patrimony.d]">[d]

Abominable Practices

“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,e]">[e] anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, 14 for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do this.

A New Prophet like Moses

15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— 16 just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ 17 And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, orf]">[f] who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

As we can see from the text (in its entirety), the word "brothers" was used for the Israelites. God promised the Israelites to raise a prophet from among them, from their brothers. (Deuteronomy 18:15).

Deuteronomy 17:14,15 forbids Israelites from letting a foreigner rule over them, who would not be from among their brothers.

Deuteronomy 17:14,15

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.

For Muhammad to have matched the description in Deuteronomy, he would have had to been an Israelite. There is no word to insert "Israelite" into the text... when read in its context it is clear that "brothers" referred to other Israelites, not non-Israelites.
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Muhammad also performed miracles like Moses such as the splitting of the moon.
Deuteronomy 34:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

I know that the Quran teaches that Muhammad did miracles, according to the Bible so did Jesus and also His followers. Unlike Jesus and many of His followers (and other prophets in the Old Testament), Muhammad was not an Israelite.

There is nothing wrong with non-Jews, but the prophecy in Deuteronomy 18 could not have been about him.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

In the night of Isra and Miraj Muhammad spoke to Allah himself about the prayers.

I am aware Islam teaches this, thanks for sharing. However, what we are debating is whether the Torah and Injil (or remnants of them as Muslims believe that what we have are changed copies of the original) contain descriptions of Muhammad. When read it its entirety, the Book of Deuteronomy is clearly not describing Muhammad or any other non-Israelite prophet.


Also, is Deuteronomy considered by Muslims to be part of the Injil? Where in the New Testament is Muhammad mentioned?

Originally posted by TG12345


Also, where does the Quran say Christians changed their Scriptures? I know Ibn Abbas said this, he also said in his tafsirs that Christians and Jews have the Injil and Torah with them. He was obviously contradicting himself. Did Muhammad or the author of the Quran who you believe to be God say that? Thanks.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79) 

Thanks for sharing this, 786Salaam Khan. Are you aware of the fact that this passage is about Jews, and not Christians?

According to tafsir Ibn Abbas:

(Have ye any hope that they will be true to you) do you hope, O Muhammad, that the Jews will believe in you (when a party of them) the 70 men who were with Moses (used to listen to the Word of Allah) used to listen to Moses reciting the Word of Allah, (then used to change it) alter it, (after they had understood it) after knowing it and fully understanding it (knowingly?) while knowing that they were altering it?

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=75&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


The alterations that the Jews were charged with are of changing the description of Muhammad in the Torah... yet in the same Quran the Jews are told to look to the Torah to find Muhammad mentioned there!

(Therefore woe) severe punishment, and it is said this means: a valley in hell (be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands) change the description and traits of Muhammad (pbuh) in the Book (and then say, “This is) in the Book that has come (from Allah”, that they may purchase) through changing and altering it (a small gain therewith) a small gain in terms of means of subsistence and surplus of property. (Woe unto them) theirs is a severe punishment (for what their hands have written) have altered (and woe unto them) and theirs is a severe punishment (for what they earn thereby) of unlawful earnings and bribes.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=79&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Jalalayn says the same thing more or less.

Also, the charge of writing Scripture with their hands is made to Jews in Muhammad's time... which would indicate they were the ones who changed the text. The 70 Jews in the time of Moses allegedly would alter the word they heard recited to them, but there is no mention of them changing the Scripture. That allegation was made against Jews in the time of Muhammad.
 

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran 3:78)

3:78 is also not a reference to Christians, but to Jews in the time of Muhammad.

(And Lo! there is) of the Jews (a party of them) Ka'b and his fellow men (who distort the Scripture with their tongues) by reading the traits of the anti-Christ in their Scripture, (that ye may think) that the lowly may think (that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: It is from Allah) in the Torah, (when it is not from Allah) in the Torah; (and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly) fully aware that this is not in their Scripture.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=78&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

They are accused not of changing the text, but from misreading it to alter what the Torah really says. Notice they are fully aware that what they read is not in their Torah... so that would indicate quite clearly that the Torah was around in its true form up to the time of Muhammad and it was misread by some Jews who knew what it really said and were twisting it anyways.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made! (Quran 3:187)

3:187 does refer to Christians and Jews according to Ibn Abbas, and Jews only according to Ibn Jalalayn.

According to Ibn Abbas, the Christians and Jews hid the traits and descriptions of Muhammad in their Scriptures.

Then Allah mentioned His covenant with the people of the Book in the Scripture, which required them to exposit the traits and description of His Prophet, saying: (And (remember) when Allah laid a charge on those who had received the Scripture) i.e. the Torah and the Gospel ((He said): Ye are to expound it) the trait and description of Muhammad (to mankind and not to hide it) not to hide these traits and description of Muhammad in their Scripture. (But they flung it behind their backs) and did not act upon it (and bought thereby a little gain) a paltry acquisition in their means of living by hiding the traits and description of Muhammad in their Scripture. (Verily evil is that which they have gained thereby) evil is that which they have chosen for themselves: Judaism and the concealment of the traits and description of Muhammad.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=187&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


If this verse applies to Christians and the Injil, then Christians were ordered to proclaim to mankind the traits and descriptions of Muhammad in their text, but instead they hid it and did not act upon it. If the traits and descriptions of Muhammad were hidden in the Gospel by the Christians, then how is it possible that God would tell Christians to look for these same things therein? Were they hidden from the Gospel, or were they not?

According to tafsir Ibn Jalalayn, the verse is a reference to the Jews.

And, mention, when God made covenant with those who had been given the Scripture, that is, the pledge [taken] from them in the Torah, ‘You shall expound it (read tubayyinunnahu, or yubayyinunnahu, ‘they shall expound it’) the Book, to people, and not conceal it’ (read taktumūnahu, ‘you shall not conceal it’, or yaktumūnahu, ‘they shall not conceal it’). But they rejected it, they discarded the covenant, behind their backs, and so they did not act in accordance with it, and bought with it, they took in its place, a small price, of this world from the debased among them, enjoying supremacy over them in knowledge, and they concealed it, lest it [the supremacy] escape them; how evil is what they have bought, [how evil is] this purchase of theirs!

Originally posted by TG12345


He did. I don't see the point you are getting at though.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

You asked why Allah would allow falsehoods to be written and I said because of free will. Waraqa was no Prophet and he didn't have any direct or spiritual contact with G-d, just influence.

What do you mean by "influence"?

If Ibn Waraqa had no direct or spiritual contact with God, how could he have known that Gabriel was the angel who Muhammad spoke to?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

No disrespect but to be honest I can't even be bothered to reply to the rest or reply anymore. I'm not gonna convince you and you're not gonna convince me. I'm not a good debater, usually when I have a religious debate with either muslim or non muslim it leads to nowhere or the other person ends up insulting, cursing or attacking me personally. What's the point? I've been a better questioner than a answerer.

Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated.- Confucius



No disrespect taken, 786SalaamKhan. I think these are important things to look at and debate, and hopefully the truth will come out of such discussions. If you want to not engage in them anymore, I have nothing against you.

I can assure you though that regardless of whether this discussion/debate would have continued or not, I would never curse, attack or insult you. My faith in Christ does not allow me to do that.

Salaam.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 10:11am
Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345



Originally posted by Abu Loren



As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Good news for Christians and Jews.
 
<div ="hadith_narrated"="">Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said:
<div ="text_details"="">                      "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice.
Salaam Alaikum.Do you believe this applies to Christians and Jews today, or during Muhammad's time only?Also, what does the term "believe in" the earlier Book and "believe in" another Book mean? I would assume that means reading it and believing in what it says, am I right?


My two or so cents!

Answering your first question:
Yes it does. The Quran and the Prophet(pbuh) are valid till the end times.
The last line of the Hadith Abu Loren has written is very simple. If you believe in a book from God before, and believe the Quran to be from God, it is those whose reward will be doubled.
There were many who fit this category when the Quran was revealed and they accepted it to be from God, and became Muslim.
I personally believe that yes it applies to all of the people of the book that followed it's (Quran's) revelation. I say that on the basis of this understanding that once they accept the Quran, they enter light and guidance that also shows them that what they believed to be from God was indeed from God, just not in it's purity.
So as a reward for their test of faith, they are rewarded twice!
Hasan

Salaam Alaikum Hasan,Thank you for your answer. I will ask you the same question I asked of Abu Loren.What evidence is there that Christians, before they met Muhammad and had the Quran come to them, believed in or even stated there was such a thing as the Injil (which would be the 'previous Book' for Christians if I am not mistaken)? According to the hadith:And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book
came to him and he believed in it
; then he will be given his reward
twice
."
It is pretty clear from the text that the Christians rewarded twice first believed in an earlier Book, and then the Quran came to them and they believed in it.I have yet to find evidence outside the Quran and hadiths that Christians ever believed in a book like the Injil, which the Quran describes as a Scripture that was given to Jesus.If you have any evidence of the belief in the existence of a Book revealed to Jesus by God from Christians or other non-Muslims around or prior to the time of Muhammad, please show me.Allahu Akhbar.


TG12345,
sorry, I have been busy so could not reply soon, but here is my response and answer to your question.
First of all for me and any believer, the Quran being the Final word of God and the most authentic source with us today says so. So for a believer like myself there it is clear, what it says what it is. For those of you that needs other proves out side the authentic word of God, I have previously mentioned that what we have of the Injeel, you call the NT or the Bible, there are verses that clearly show the existence of the Gospel, the one that Jesus went around preaching! Whatever Jesus was revealed to preach is the Gospel or Injeel.
Here are a couple of those verses for you:
Mark 1:14
"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the GOSPEL of the kingdom of God,"
Matthew 9:35
"And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the GOSPEL of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people."

And people other than Jesus also are recorded to have preached the same:
Luke 9:6 And they (the twelve disciples) departed, and went through the towns, preaching the GOSPEL, and healing every where.

Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:07pm
Hi TG and others,

Quoted from one of your posts:
Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—
16 just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’
17 And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
19 And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him

Response: --- While there are some similarities between Moses and Muhammad in their calling, and them sacrificing themselves in their dedication to God’s work,--- these verses definitely refer to Jesus.

--- The crowd compared Jesus to Moses, --- in the miracle of Moses having given them ‘manna’ from heaven, --- to the miracle of Jesus feeding the 5000 on the hillside,--- and it says this in John 6:
14 Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”

And at Jesus baptism in Matthew 3:
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

On the mount of transfiguration in Matthew 17:
1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves;
2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
5 Behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”

And, after Jesus had ascended to the right hand of God, and the Holy Spirit had come, in Acts 3:
22 (Peter is speaking) --- For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

And concerning Jesus speaking the words that God put in His mouth, it says this in John 17:
8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.


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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren



As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Good news for Christians and Jews.
 
<div ="hadith_narrated"="">Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said:
<div ="text_details"="">                      "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice.


Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum.Do you believe this applies to Christians and Jews today, or during Muhammad's time only?Also, what does the term "believe in" the earlier Book and "believe in" another Book mean? I would assume that means reading it and believing in what it says, am I right?


Originally posted by honeto

My two or so cents!

Answering your first question:
Yes it does. The Quran and the Prophet(pbuh) are valid till the end times.
The last line of the Hadith Abu Loren has written is very simple. If you believe in a book from God before, and believe the Quran to be from God, it is those whose reward will be doubled.
There were many who fit this category when the Quran was revealed and they accepted it to be from God, and became Muslim.
I personally believe that yes it applies to all of the people of the book that followed it's (Quran's) revelation. I say that on the basis of this understanding that once they accept the Quran, they enter light and guidance that also shows them that what they believed to be from God was indeed from God, just not in it's purity.
So as a reward for their test of faith, they are rewarded twice!
Hasan



Originally posted by honeto


Salaam Alaikum Hasan,Thank you for your answer. I will ask you the same question I asked of Abu Loren.What evidence is there that Christians, before they met Muhammad and had the Quran come to them, believed in or even stated there was such a thing as the Injil (which would be the 'previous Book' for Christians if I am not mistaken)? According to the hadith:And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book
came to him and he believed in it
; then he will be given his reward
twice
."
It is pretty clear from the text that the Christians rewarded twice first believed in an earlier Book, and then the Quran came to them and they believed in it.I have yet to find evidence outside the Quran and hadiths that Christians ever believed in a book like the Injil, which the Quran describes as a Scripture that was given to Jesus.If you have any evidence of the belief in the existence of a Book revealed to Jesus by God from Christians or other non-Muslims around or prior to the time of Muhammad, please show me.Allahu Akhbar.


Originally posted by honeto

TG12345,
sorry, I have been busy so could not reply soon, but here is my response and answer to your question.
First of all for me and any believer, the Quran being the Final word of God and the most authentic source with us today says so. So for a believer like myself there it is clear, what it says what it is. 

Salaam Alaikum, Hasan. Thank you for your response and please do not worry about it coming 'late', sometimes my responses can take a while too.

I feel the same way with the Bible that you do about the Quran so I understand where you are coming from, but if a non-believer questions something in the Bible, I try to say more than tell him or her it is from God so it is true. The Bible definitely is God breathed, but this explanation makes little sense to a non-Christian so I try to explain more.

Like you are doing below.

Originally posted by honeto

For those of you that needs other proves out side the authentic word of God, I have previously mentioned that what we have of the Injeel, you call the NT or the Bible,

Where does the Quran or hadiths say that what we have of the Injil is in the Bible or New Testament?

Originally posted by honeto

  there are verses that clearly show the existence of the Gospel, the one that Jesus went around preaching! Whatever Jesus was revealed to preach is the Gospel or Injeel.
Here are a couple of those verses for you:
Mark 1:14
"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the GOSPEL of the kingdom of God,"
Matthew 9:35
"And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the GOSPEL of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people."

And people other than Jesus also are recorded to have preached the same:
Luke 9:6 And they (the twelve disciples) departed, and went through the towns, preaching the GOSPEL, and healing every where.

Hasan


True, and as you surely see, there is nothing about the Gospel being a book that was revealed by God to Jesus as the Quran teaches. There is nothing about the Gospel about Muhammad, or about Him making birds out of clay or doing many other things that the Quran claims He did, like escaping the crucifixion, or saying He is not God.


So what is the Gospel? This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11


Now I would remind you, brothers,a]">[a] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6

 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.


The Gospel is the Good News about Jesus- including Jesus dying for our sins, His burial and resurrection.


Jesus foretold of His death, burial and resurrection in the Bible. The Gospels confirm Paul's words. For the most part, they do not confirm what is said of Jesus in the Quran.



Edited by TG12345 - 21 January 2013 at 7:45pm
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Quote 786SalamKhan Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:11am
Originally posted by TG12345


Peace be upon you as well.

Wa Alaikum, I know said I wasn't going to reply but are there some last few things I would like to say.

Originally posted by TG12345

I understand there is a substantial difference between the Quran and hadiths. Islam teaches the Quran was revealed by God to Muhammad through Gabriel, while the hadiths are his teachings that God revealed to him but are not part of the Quran.

However, as we both know the Quran tells its followers to defer to Muhammad for decisions. People can't have any real faith until their souls make no resistance to Muhammad's decisions and accept them with fullest conviction.

4:65

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Muslims are called to obey God and to obey Muhammad, according to the Quran. He preaches the clear message. This verse also says this duty was placed on him by God.

24:54

Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

If authentic hadith (like Bukhari and Muslim, as you will notice I am not quoting Abu Dawud or others that some see as suspect) contain mistakes, aren't you saying that the clear message God gave him is full of mistakes?

If I am wrong in any of this (ie that God does not tell people that what Muhammad told them is from Him and it must be followed if one is to follow God as these ayahs say) please correct me.

Please stop trying to teach me Ahadith. I already know this. These Quran refer to the Sunnah of the Prophet and not Ahadith. Sunnah are the established acts of the Prophet and the closest way of following the Sunnah is to follow the one of the four Madhabs(Schools of thought) which by the way the founders appeared within 200 years after Prophet Muhammad while no disrespect to them Bukhari and Muslim appeared around 600 years after! I only follow hadith that don't conflict or contradict themselves, others I go to someone knowledgeable for guidance or I just leave it.

Originally posted by TG12345

Deuteronomy 18

18 “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offeringsa]">[a] as theirb]">[b] inheritance. They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them. And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from those offering a sacrifice, whether an ox or a sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach. The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him. For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for all time.


Interesting, that goes against this:
Genesis 17:20


And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

And here are some interesting pages If you would like to see.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/bible_nt.html
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/new.html
http://www.islamawareness.net/DeadSeaScrolls/bible_scrolls_dead_sea.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnSw6f6Pka4

Originally posted by TG12345


No disrespect taken, 786SalaamKhan. I think these are important things to look at and debate, and hopefully the truth will come out of such discussions. If you want to not engage in them anymore, I have nothing against you.

I can assure you though that regardless of whether this discussion/debate would have continued or not, I would never curse, attack or insult you. My faith in Christ does not allow me to do that.

Salaam.


Thank you for your kindness. I forgot to say in my previous post that I concede.Smile


Edited by 786SalamKhan - 22 January 2013 at 5:15am
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:41am
Originally posted by TG12345


Peace be upon you as well.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum, I know said I wasn't going to reply but are there some last few things I would like to say.

Wa alaikum salaam. Feel free to make any responses you want, just know that I will reply to them. Smile

Originally posted by TG12345

I understand there is a substantial difference between the Quran and hadiths. Islam teaches the Quran was revealed by God to Muhammad through Gabriel, while the hadiths are his teachings that God revealed to him but are not part of the Quran.

However, as we both know the Quran tells its followers to defer to Muhammad for decisions. People can't have any real faith until their souls make no resistance to Muhammad's decisions and accept them with fullest conviction.

4:65

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Muslims are called to obey God and to obey Muhammad, according to the Quran. He preaches the clear message. This verse also says this duty was placed on him by God.

24:54

Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

If authentic hadith (like Bukhari and Muslim, as you will notice I am not quoting Abu Dawud or others that some see as suspect) contain mistakes, aren't you saying that the clear message God gave him is full of mistakes?

If I am wrong in any of this (ie that God does not tell people that what Muhammad told them is from Him and it must be followed if one is to follow God as these ayahs say) please correct me.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Please stop trying to teach me Ahadith. I already know this. These Quran refer to the Sunnah of the Prophet and not Ahadith. Sunnah are the established acts of the Prophet and the closest way of following the Sunnah is to follow the one of the four Madhabs(Schools of thought) which by the way the founders appeared within 200 years after Prophet Muhammad while Bukhari and Muslim appeared around 600 years after!

I have to admit I am confused, and there is something I am definitely not understanding, maybe you can help me. The Sunnah from what I read are the legal ways, orders, statements, acts of worship from Muhammad, right? The hadiths are collections of things that he said and did, is that correct?

If the hadiths and Sunnah are two different things, my question then is where can you read the Sunnah? Where can you read about the life of Muhammad and his teachings? I mistakenly assumed this was the hadith, I guess I was wrong.

If Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths are not the Sunnah, then what is? Where can I read it? Can you provide any links?

Also, how do you know that 4:65 and 24:54 refer to the Sunnah and not the hadiths?


According to Islaamnet,


Sunnah:=The legal way or ways, orders, acts of worship and statements of the Prophet, that are ideals and models to be followed by Muslims.

http://www.islaamnet.com/whatissunnah.html


Interestingly, when I tried to look for Sunnahs to read them and came across sunnah.com, the collections were the hadiths.

http://sunnah.com/


Islam, the Arabic word Sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad (S), the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur’an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them. The Arabic word hadith (pl. ahadith) is very similar to Sunnah, but not identical. A hadith is a narration about the life of the Prophet (S) or what he approved - as opposed to his life itself, which is the Sunnah as already mentioned.

In M. M. Azami's Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature, the following precise definition of a hadith is given,

According to Muhaddithiin [scholars of hadith -ed.] it stands for 'what was transmitted on the authority of the Prophet, his deeds, sayings, tacit approval, or description of his sifaat (features) meaning his physical appearance. However, physical appearance of the Prophet is not included in the definition used by the jurists.'

Thus hadith literature means the literature, which consists of the narrations of the life of the Prophet and the things approved by him. However, the term was used sometimes in much broader sense to cover the narrations about the Companions [of the Prophet -ed.] and Successors [to the Companions -ed.] as well.

The explosion of Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries confronted Islamic scholars with a daunting task: to preserve the knowledge of the Sunnah of the Prophet (S). Hence the science of hadith evaluation was born.

http://www.nicheoftruth.org/pages/sunnah.htm



Originally posted by TG12345

Deuteronomy 18

18 “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offeringsa]">[a] as theirb]">[b] inheritance. They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them. And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from those offering a sacrifice, whether an ox or a sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach. The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him. For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for all time.



Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan


Interesting, that goes against this:
Genesis 17:20


And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.



How does Deuteronomy 18 contradict this? Ishmael was indeed blessed by God and made into a great nation. Genesis 17 confirms this.

However, this does not change the fact that the word "brothers" refers to Israel. The passage you cited itself shows this.

18 “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offeringsa]">[a] as theirb]">[b] inheritance. They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them. And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from those offering a sacrifice, whether an ox or a sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach. The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him. For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for all time.


Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan


And here are some interesting pages If you would like to see.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/bible_nt.html
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/new.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnSw6f6Pka4

They are interesting. There are some minor variations in Bible versions, but nothing that has any huge impact on Christian theology.

Originally posted by TG12345


No disrespect taken, 786SalaamKhan. I think these are important things to look at and debate, and hopefully the truth will come out of such discussions. If you want to not engage in them anymore, I have nothing against you.

I can assure you though that regardless of whether this discussion/debate would have continued or not, I would never curse, attack or insult you. My faith in Christ does not allow me to do that.

Salaam.



Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan

Thank you for your kindness. I forgot to say in my previous post that I concede.Smile


Thank you for yours. Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean that you concede. What are you conceding to?

Salaam.
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