Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Christians and Jews Will receive a Double Reward Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 9 Next >>
Author Message
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 745
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:50pm
 
Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan



You wrote:

There are also verses similar to this in the Quran but it only applies to the (Unitarian)Christians before Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and the Jews before Prophets Zechariah, John and Jesus(PBUT).

If the following hadith (which we were discussing)

Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said:
"Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward twice."

applies to only Unitarian Christians before Muhammad, and another Book is a reference to the Quran, you are saying that the Quran came to Unitarian Christians who lived before Muhammad.



Originally posted by TG12345

I actually wrote:

How could a Christian believe that God sent a book to Jesus prior to him or her believing in the Quran? There is no record outside of the Quran or hadiths of such a book either existing or in anyone believing in the existence of such a book. If I am wrong on that, please show me sources that prove otherwise.

Who are the scholars who claim the Injil existed? On what basis do they make this claim?

19:30 says that the Gospel was a "Scripture" revealed to Jesus by God.

[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

If you examine the website "Corpus Quran", you will see that the word for Scripture is "l-kitaba"
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2819:30:6%29

The same word is used for the Torah in 23:49.
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2823:49:4%29

I am no expert in Arabic, so if this site is providing bad translations please let me know, I am going based on what it says.

If it is correct, the same word that is used for "Scripture" regarding the "Injil" is used regarding the Torah, which Muslims if I am not mistaken do believe is a real book (which was also allegedly corrupted).

Allahu Akhbar.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Oh so you thought that when I said only Unitarian Christians I meant in relation to the Hadith. Sorry, I meant that the Quranic verses alone apply to them. Notice how I said "Similar verses" and then "but".

Salaam Alaikum, 786SalaamKhan. I misunderstood your words. I apologize for that.

Who do you believe the hadiths are about?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Muslim scholars conclude that the Injeel was most likely inspired. Also it gets tedious when both Christians and Muslims cherry pick verses from both the Quran and Bible to prove a point without looking at the context or reading beyond the text.

I strongly agree with you. This is especially relevant to the video which you showed, which we will discuss later.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

You should know from the lives of the Prophets Muhammad(PBUH) and Moses(PBUH) that the words "scripture" and "book" aren't literal since Prophet Moses and Prophet Muhammad didn't actually receive the Torah and Quran in written form rather the words were divinely inspired.

However, the words were written down. The Quran existed in book form in Muhammad's life time.


When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him received the Noble Quran's Revelations in a 10-years span, he had everything documented on paper and saved with his close disciples and immediate family.  He also had the entire Noble Quran memorized along with many of his followers.  The Noble Quran during the times of our beloved Prophet peace be upon him was carefully preserved and protected from man's corruption.  It was documented on paper and it was entirely memorized by many.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/other_books.htm



2. Written Text of the Quran

Prophet's Lifetime:

Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.

Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.

'Some people visited Zaid Ibn Thabit (one of the scribes of the Prophet) and asked him to tell them some stories about Allah's Messenger. He replied: "I was his (Prophet's) neighbor, and when the inspiration descended on him he sent for me and I went to him and wrote it down for him…" [14]

Narrated by al-Bara': There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit (home) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (4:95). The Prophet said: 'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and scapula bone.' Then he (Prophet) said: 'Write: Not equal are those believers…' [15]

Zaid is reported to have said: 'We use to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle'. [16]

'The Prophet, while in Madinah, had about 48 scribes who use to write for him'. [17]

Abdullah Ibn 'Umar relates:… 'The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy"' [18]

During the Prophet's last pilgrimage, he gave a sermon in which he said: 'I have left with you something which if you will hold fast to it you will never fall into error - a plain indication, the Book of God (Quran) and the practice of his Prophet…' [19]

'Besides the official manuscripts of the Quran kept with the Prophet, many of his companions use to possess their own written copies of the revelation'. [20]

'A list of Companions of whom it is related that they had their own written collections included the following: Ibn Mas'ud, Ubay bin Ka'b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas bin Malik, Umar, Zaid bin Thabit, Ibn Al-Zubair, Abdullah ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, Ubaid bin Umar'. [21]

'The best known among these (Prophet's Scribes) are: Ibn Masud, Ubay bin Kab and Zaid bin Thabit'. [22]

'Aisha and Hafsa, the wives of the Prophet had their own scripts written after the Prophet had died'. [23]


http://iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel3.htm

Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan

I
Prophet Jesus (PBUH) received the message and taught it to others who may or may not have written it down.

If I am not mistaken, Islam teaches that God gave Jesus a book.


The Injeel

The Injeel is the book of Allah revealed to Prophet Eesa (Jesus, peace be upon him). Injeel means evangelion, or Gospel Book. It is often just translated as The Gospel.

Like the Tawrat, many people make the mistake of stating the Injeel is the New Testament of the Bible. But that is far from the truth.

The New Testament consists of written work attributed to some of Jesus’ disciples. And a good portion of the New Testament was written by Paul, who was not a disciple at all.

Most modern scholars have concluded it is highly unlikely that Jesus’ actual disciples wrote any part of the New Testament. Even if they had written it (which they did not) They were not the prophets of Allah.

While there may be some truth in the writings popularly known as the Gospels of Mark, Luke, John, and Matt, Muslims are not obliged to follow or even read them.

The only Gospel we are concerned with, is the Gospel of Jesus. But like many other Books of Allah, the actual text is no longer available.

And like all of the other Books of Allah, the message of the Injeel is preserved in the message of the Quran.

http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/books-of-allah/


  1. The Injeel (Gospel) : The Injeel is the Book which was revealed to ‘Eesaa («may god exalt their mention») (Jesus). Allah says:

    "And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Eesaa, son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Torah that had come before him. And We gave him the Injeel, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tauraat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for the Allah-fearing." (5:46)

    A Muslim must believe in all the Heavenly Books and he must believe that they are from Allah. It is not lawful for him to abide by its laws, since these Books were revealed to certain nations at certain times.

    The Qur'an has explained some of what was found in the Torah and the Injeel; such as the prophecy of Muhammad (peace be upon him):

    "…and My mercy encompasses all things; so I will ordain it (specially) for those who are pious and give Zakah (Obligatory Charity), and those who believe in Our Ayaat. Those who follow the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from the their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful." (7:156)

http://1ststepsinislam.com/en/belief-in-books.aspx

If there was no book, why did the author of the Quran tell Christians that they will find Muhammad mentioned in the Gospel?

Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan

If you still aren't convinced here is a text which dates before the four canonical Gospel and Paul's Writings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XllGiKmb_e0

Thanks for the video, it was quite interesting.

The producer is saying that the Book of James and Didache show the real teachings of Jesus and beliefs of the early Christians, and that there is no mention in them of Christ's divinity, death, or resurrection.

The Book of James focuses on some of the teachings of Jesus, not on what He did for us the cross.

It does not deny the crucifixion, Trinity, resurrection or death as the Quran does. It just does not mention them.

It also does not mention Him making birds out of clay as the Quran said He did, or healing the blind and lepers and raising the dead (which both Muslims and Christians believe He did). He also does not mention anything of Him making lawful to the Jews what was not lawful to them before. It also says nothing about Him escaping the crucifixion, or warning people not to worship Him. There is nothing in it about the coming of Muhammad, which Jesus allegedly preached.

The Book of James contains teachings that contradict the Quran.

James 1:1 states

 James, a servanta]">[a] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,

James 2:1
My brothers,a]">[a] show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.

However, as you probably know, the Quran teaches that a prophet of God could not say to people to take him or an angel as Lord.

3:79,80
3
It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than Allah ," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."

Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims?

Christians call Jesus Lord because we believe He is God. We don't call Paul or Peter or other disciples "lord". His brother also obviously believed this, and called Him Lord.

In the Book of James, God is referred to as the Father. Christians call God our Father.
 
James 1:26,27

26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and

widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%201&version=ESV


James 3:9

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+3&version=ESV

Yet the Quran attacks Christians and Jews for saying God is our Father, and it states that God has no son.

19:30
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!


005.018
PICKTHAL: The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Nay, ye are but mortals of His creating. He forgiveth whom He will, and chastiseth whom He will. Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/005-qmt.php

As we see, although the Book of James does not confirm Christ's death, resurrection, deity (directly) or saving grace, it also does not deny these truths. There is absolutely nothing in it that confirms what the Quran says about Him (raising the dead, healing the sick... which both Muslims and Christians believe He did... or making birds out of clay, or escaping the crucifixion, or making things lawful which were not lawful before). It also does not say Jesus was only a prophet.

In opposition to the Quran's teaching, it refers to Jesus as Lord and refers to God as the Father.

Let us now examine the second book the producer mentioned, the Didache.

The Didache does not mention Jesus' death and resurrection. It also does not deny  them.

It does, however, mention the Trinity!

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

This is of course, based on Jesus' words, which are recorded for us in the Bible.

Matthew 28:16-20

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inb]">[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2028&version=ESV


The Didache also quotes the Book of Matthew as "the Gospel".

Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer). But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever..


Matthew 6:7-13


“And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.a]">[a]
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,b]">[b]
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread,c]">[c]
12 and forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from evil.d]">[d]


d. Matthew 6:13 Or the evil one; some manuscripts add For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever. Amen

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%206&version=ESV


d]">The word Gospel means "Good News". It was the message Jesus preached, His life, His death, His resurrection, His divinity, everything He is. The Gospels were accounts of Him that were written by His disciples.

Far from being an "alternative version", the Didache not only does not deny Christian teachings about Jesus, but confirms the Trinity and quotes the Gospel of Matthew as His Gospel! Notice again that God is referred to as "our Father", something the Quran claims is not true.

Notice also that it confirms nothing that the Quran teaches about Jesus.

Neither the Didache or Book of James challenge the truths of Jesus' death or resurrection, and they also do not confirm what is said about Him in the Quran.

The Book of James contradicts the Quran by claiming Jesus is Lord and referring to God as the Father. The Didache not only does this, but also quotes the Gospel of Matthew as the Lord's Gospel and confirms the Trinity.

They are in no way, shape or form an alternative version to Christianity, they are simply a part of it.

The video producer is the one who should have read more carefully what his sources have to say.

 
Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan

If you still not convinced

Sorry, I have to say I am not. The video shows that the Didache and Book of James not only don't contradict the Bible but that they confirm some of its important teachings. They also not only don't confirm the Quran but actually contradict it a few times.

Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan

check Quran 3:7 which says that verses are clear whilst others are allegories.


Sorry, I'm not following what you mean by that. Could you please explain? Shukran.



IP IP Logged
honeto
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2397
Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2013 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by TG12345



Originally posted by Abu Loren



As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Good news for Christians and Jews.
 
<div ="hadith_narrated"="">Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said:
<div ="text_details"="">                      "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward twice."
Salaam Alaikum.Do you believe this applies to Christians and Jews today, or during Muhammad's time only?Also, what does the term "believe in" the earlier Book and "believe in" another Book mean? I would assume that means reading it and believing in what it says, am I right?


My two or so cents!

Answering your first question:
Yes it does. The Quran and the Prophet(pbuh) are valid till the end times.
The last line of the Hadith Abu Loren has written is very simple. If you believe in a book from God before, and believe the Quran to be from God, it is those whose reward will be doubled.
There were many who fit this category when the Quran was revealed and they accepted it to be from God, and became Muslim.
I personally believe that yes it applies to all of the people of the book that followed it's (Quran's) revelation. I say that on the basis of this understanding that once they accept the Quran, they enter light and guidance that also shows them that what they believed to be from God was indeed from God, just not in it's purity.
So as a reward for their test of faith, they are rewarded twice!
Hasan



Edited by honeto - 13 January 2013 at 3:11pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 745
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345



Originally posted by Abu Loren



As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Good news for Christians and Jews.
 
<div ="hadith_narrated"="">Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said:
<div ="text_details"="">                      "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice.

Salaam Alaikum.Do you believe this applies to Christians and Jews today, or during Muhammad's time only?Also, what does the term "believe in" the earlier Book and "believe in" another Book mean? I would assume that means reading it and believing in what it says, am I right?


My two or so cents!

Answering your first question:
Yes it does. The Quran and the Prophet(pbuh) are valid till the end times.
The last line of the Hadith Abu Loren has written is very simple. If you believe in a book from God before, and believe the Quran to be from God, it is those whose reward will be doubled.
There were many who fit this category when the Quran was revealed and they accepted it to be from God, and became Muslim.
I personally believe that yes it applies to all of the people of the book that followed it's (Quran's) revelation. I say that on the basis of this understanding that once they accept the Quran, they enter light and guidance that also shows them that what they believed to be from God was indeed from God, just not in it's purity.
So as a reward for their test of faith, they are rewarded twice!
Hasan



Salaam Alaikum Hasan,

Thank you for your answer. I will ask you the same question I asked of Abu Loren.

What evidence is there that Christians, before they met Muhammad and had the Quran come to them, believed in or even stated there was such a thing as the Injil (which would be the 'previous Book' for Christians if I am not mistaken)?

According to the hadith:

And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward twice."

It is pretty clear from the text that the Christians rewarded twice first believed in an earlier Book, and then the Quran came to them and they believed in it.


I have yet to find evidence outside the Quran and hadiths that Christians ever believed in a book like the Injil, which the Quran describes as a Scripture that was given to Jesus.

If you have any evidence of the belief in the existence of a Book revealed to Jesus by God from Christians or other non-Muslims around or prior to the time of Muhammad, please show me.

Allahu Akhbar.
IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 745
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 4:19am
786SalaamKhan,

Salaam Alaikum. I hope you are doing well. I found some more hadiths which I think show that Muhammad believed that the Gospel was in book form.


(1) Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran): 'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."  (Book #1, Hadith #3)

(2) Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."  (Book #55, Hadith #605)


http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=Waraqa+bin+Naufal&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all


According to these hadiths in Bukhari,

God had Ibn Warraqa, who was a Christian who was an elderly man when he met Muhammad, write in Hebrew from the Gospel.

Ibn Warraqa used to read the Gospels in Arabic.


This is I think significant, since it shows that people in Muhammad's time did have the Gospel, and that it was in written form.

I don't see how the first hadith could refer to a 'changed Gospel', unless you would assume that God would order an elderly man to write words that were not from Him.

It is interesting to me that Ibn Warraqa would read "the Gospels" in Arabic. If they were books that were changed by man, why would Khadija take Muhammad to him?


What are your thoughts?
IP IP Logged
786SalamKhan
 
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 30 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 48
Quote 786SalamKhan Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2013 at 5:54am
Wa Alaikum, I am fine thank you I hope you are doing well also.

Narrated Ubaidullah:  "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)

Narrated Abu Huraira:  "The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' '  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460)

According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who try to tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going to happen.   He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and they simply blew it!. Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."

It's not like there isn't some truth left in the previous scriptures. Also I don't think Allah literally commanded Waraqa to write the Gospel, it could merely be narrated in that way because nothing happens without Allah's will. Also who else would Khadija go to for help in a Pagan Arabia when her husband told her that it was Gabriel that had visited him? And Allah knows best.

And silly me, I never realized that variant of the book of James was available outside of that video but then again I didn't fully agree with the title of the video. How does it mention the trinity if it says "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost"? If you had three people sitting together eating lunch would it mean they are one? I knew that the Quran was written during Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)'s lifetime but I merely pointed out he didn't receive it in written.

And regarding Quran 3:7Allah points out that some verses need interpretation, I applied that to when it says that Jesus received a "book". The hadith in discussion I think means that Jews and Christians who become muslims will receive more rewards that any other non muslims who accept Islam. Again, Allah knows best.



Edited by 786SalamKhan - 15 January 2013 at 6:24am
IP IP Logged
Webber
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 09 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 128
Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 1:15am

I don't get it. If Moses followed the laws and so did his people they would have gone to heaven. If all the Prophets followed the same "injil" then following any one of them would land you in heaven, why only Muhammad? The Quran seems to have the least "plan of salvation" of all.

Which Muslim knows they will be saved for sure, anyone on this site?
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 745
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum, I am fine thank you I hope you are doing well also.

Salaam Alaikum. Shukran, ana tamaam. InshAllah anta tamaam aydan.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Narrated Ubaidullah:  "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461) 

I can see that this states that according to Muhammad the Jews and Christians corrupted their scriptures, and I can see why Muslims would claim Islam teaches this.

I think that this is a contradiction of ayahs which call Christians and Jews to find Muhammad in the Gospel and Torah and of the hadith about Waraqa.

This may be an inconsequential observation, but notice that the bit about Jews and Christians corrupting their scriptures in the hadith you cited was stated not by Muhammad, but Ibn Abbas.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Narrated Abu Huraira:  "The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' '  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460)

I find this hadith to be very interesting. If the people of the Book are believing false things about God, why would they not be disbelieved?

Also if the Torah was corrupted, how could the people of the Book be reading it to the Arabs?

Interestingly, Muhammad was cited as saying:

 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.'

What did the Jews have at the time of Muhammad that God revealed to them? I think this is a reference to the Torah they were reading to the Muslims, whom Muhammad told to neither believe or disbelieve the Jews.

If the Torah that the Jews were reading were what God revealed to them, how could it be corrupt?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who try to tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going to happen.   He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and they simply blew it!. Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."


Thanks for sharing that verse. Let's look at what Ibn Abbas had to say about it.

Allah then explained the punishment of those who had disbelieved, saying: (And because of their) i.e. the kings (breaking their covenant, We have cursed them) We punished them through imposing the capitation tax upon them (and made hard) and lightless (their hearts. They change words from their context) they change the traits and description of Muhammad (pbuh) and the legal ruling on stoning [married people who fornicate] after this was exposited upon in the Torah (and forget a part) and leave part (of that whereof they were admonished) they were commanded with in the Torah concerning their following of Muhammad (pbuh) and manifesting his traits and description to others. Allah then showed their betrayal of the Prophet (pbuh) saying: (Thou wilt not) O Muhammad (cease to discover treachery) and contravention (from all) i.e. the Banu Qurayzah (save a few of them) 'Abdullah Ibn Salam and his followers. (But bear with them) and punish them not (and pardon them) and leave them. (Lo! Allah loveth the kindly) towards others.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=13&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

According to Ibn Abbas (who is quoted in the hadith about Christians and Jews corrupting their scriptures) , the Torah was corrupted by the Jews at the time of Muhammad. They changed the parts which allegedly talked about him and the ruling of stoning... although funnily enough that is in the Old Testament. They allegedly left what the Torah said about their command to follow Muhammad and tell others about him. These same Jews then betrayed Muhammad.

According to 5:13, the Jews who changed the Torah were the ones who betrayed Muhammad and refused to follow him.

This would imply that before their time, the Torah spoke of Muhammad and of stoning adulterers (which it still does).

Can you show me any copy of the Torah where Muhammad is mentioned?


Sorry for going off on a tangent, but this brings me to another question. If 5:13 is a reference to the textual corruption of the Torah and according to Ibn Abbas tafsir one of the things the Jews removed was the stoning verse, then what do you make of this?

(1) Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones." 
(Book #56, Hadith #829)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=torah+stoning&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

The verse was clearly in the Torah, Abdullah bin Salaam had the Jew uncover it, and there it was!
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

It's not like there isn't some truth left in the previous scriptures.

However, the Quran verses and hadiths I brought up do not say that. They call on Christians and Jews to refer to the Injil and Torah. There is nothing to my knowledge saying to refer to corrupted books that contain some traces of them.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Also I don't think Allah literally commanded Waraqa to write the Gospel, it could merely be narrated in that way because nothing happens without Allah's will.

He wrote as much as God wished him to write. If Waraqa was a follower of God would God have allowed him to translate falsehoods into Arabic?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Also who else would Khadija go to for help in a Pagan Arabia when her husband told her that it was Gabriel that had visited him? And Allah knows best.

Good question. Another one is this- if Waraqa had been reading and copying down perversions of the Gospel, would he have had revelation about Muhammad's prophethood?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And silly me, I never realized that variant of the book of James was available outside of that video but then again I didn't fully agree with the title of the video.

It's ok, we all make mistakes. That's what makes us us and makes God God. We mess up, He does not. Hopefully however as you can see it does not prove any evidence of a suppressed Gospel of Jesus.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

How does it mention the trinity if it says "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost"? If you had three people sitting together eating lunch would it mean they are one?

Notice that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are identified as one. "in the name..."

In John 1, it is explicitly stated that Jesus (the Son) is God. Jesus was called God by Thomas, He also said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, and said a variety of things to indicate He is God.

God is referred to as the Father in many places in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit is referred to as God. An example of this would be in the Book of Acts 5:3-4 where Peter rebukes Ananias for lying.

3 aBut Peter said, “Ananias, why has bSatan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

The Trinity teaching states that God exists as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One God, but in three persons (not 'people').

Jesus confirmed this in the Book of Matthew, and the Didache quotes Him as saying this.

Furthermore, notice that Jesus said "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit".

The Quran does not call God the Father, and calling Jesus the Son of God is considered blasphemous if I am not mistaken.

Neither the Didache or Book of James confirm the documentary maker's point that Jesus' disciples somehow preached a message opposite to what is in the Bible, nor do they prove that a book called the Gospel of Jesus ever existed. They not only do not contradict the Bible but they actually contradict Islamic teachings in their theology.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

I knew that the Quran was written during Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)'s lifetime but I merely pointed out he didn't receive it in written.

Fair enough, but Islam teaches it is a Book. To the best of my understanding, it also teaches the Gospel is a Book. It tells Christians in Muhammad's time to refer to it and find him mentioned therein.


Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And regarding Quran 3:7Allah points out that some verses need interpretation, I applied that to when it says that Jesus received a "book".

Do you have any proof that unlike the Torah and Quran, the Gospel that God according to the Quran revealed to Jesus was not a book?

According to Islamic Learning,

The only Gospel we are concerned with, is the Gospel of Jesus. But like many other Books of Allah, the actual text is no longer available.

http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/books-of-allah/

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan


The hadith in discussion I think means that Jews and Christians who become muslims will receive more rewards that any other non muslims who accept Islam. Again, Allah knows best.


If that is all it said, I wouldn't be writing these posts :-)

However, it clearly says that Christians and Jews who believed in a Book (the Injil or Torah) and then believed in another book (the Quran) will be rewarded more.

As I pointed out, outside of the Quran and hadiths, there is no evidence of a book called the Injil ever existing.

I'll be away from the forum probably until next week, I will read your response and be glad to answer it but it may take a few days.

Allahma3k.


Edited by TG12345 - 16 January 2013 at 8:05pm
IP IP Logged
786SalamKhan
 
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 30 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 48
Quote 786SalamKhan Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 3:39am
Wa Alaikum,

Hadith like majority of the New Testament, Majority of the Tanakh and the Talmud isn't divine. It will obviously conflict and contradict itself in some places, many hadith are fabricated but not all are.

Again not all of the Torah and the Gospels are corrupted which is why the Quran says to look in the scriptures for the unlettered Prophet. The Quran also criticizes Christians for believing the Trinity and the Divine Sonship of Jesus but we know that not all christians believe these things. Most of the time anything that contradicts the Quran is false so 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them' probably refers to Bible verses that do not contradict the Quran but are also not mentioned in the Quran.

We both worship G-d yet why is he allowing us to continue in this discussion? Same with Waraqa. Allah gave us free will. Fair enough the New Testament does claim enough evidence for christians to believe in the Trinity. But anytime Jesus would pray who exactly is he worshiping or praying to? Himself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5upXp-8xHAY

Well there is no known evidence for me or other muslims to provide about the Injil, but it's a good thing this is the InterFAITH section. There is not much known evidence for what both our religions claim such as Adam and Noah(PBUT) but we still believe. Now It's known in the New Testament and the Talmud that Jesus(PBUH) was a Galilean or Nazarean Jew who taught things to others which were unknown or foreign to the Rabbis etc. Is this not proof of a new law? The Injil perhaps? Again, Allah knows best.



Edited by 786SalamKhan - 18 January 2013 at 3:42am
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 9 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com