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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2013 at 3:46pm
TG12345,
you said above:
"You aren't a Christian either and don't believe the Bible is God's word, yet in our debate you have argued Mark 10:18 states Jesus is not God... although the vast majority of Christians and Biblical scholars will tell you that in the passage Jesus is affirming, not denying His divinity. I don't tell you it is not your place to tell Christians how to interpret the Bible.

Having said this, if Islam is based on what is in the Quran and hadith, the fact remains that neither explicitly says that Adam was a prophet. Whether or not Muslims unanimously believe he was or wasn't doesn't change this fact."


Dear TG12345,
I know many Muslims who were Christians like you in my very close circle who say they never thought of Jesus as God even when they were Christians. Also do not forget that it is the same Bible that quotes Jesus saying he has a God when he said " to my father and your father, to my God and your God" or that "my father is greater than I" while ya'll try to impose that he and God are equal.

As far as the matter of whether Adam was given revelation, i.e. if he was also a messenger the answer is in both the Quran and the Bible.
We must first understand what is the purpose of prophets and messengers was? The purpose was to bring knowledge and guidance so people can distinguish between right and wrong, permissible and forbidden. This is what all the prophets or messengers did.
Let us see if Adam, according to the scriptures qualifies.
There are several places where we can find proof that Adam was indeed given guidance by God as well commandments to stay away from certain thing(s). Here in this example Hosea 6 gives us some proof.
(this is for those who believe in the Bible, and do not believe Muslim sources).
Please read: Hosea6:7 "But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant": This statement clearly states that Adam has a covenant with God, like Moses and other prophets did.
If you think about the whole matter of Adam being taken out of heaven, it is a proof in itself that that could have only happen after God has given him the rules, which we believe He did, and Adam broke that rule. So just in that is the proof that Adam received guidance from God. And that guidance was the word of God, thus he was the first prophet.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 02 January 2013 at 3:50pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2013 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Again, you have no say on this matter. The scholars of Islam agree that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet and they base this on the Quran and Hadiths. End of story.
Originally posted by TG12345

You assume it means that, and so may most or all Muslims. Neither the hadith or Quran however affirm or deny this.

And your opinions are far outweighed by the unanimous agreement among Muslims.
and if the muslims are astray in their thinking...? if their 'scholars' have led them astray...?


Edited by Caringheart - 02 January 2013 at 4:30pm
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2013 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by honeto

TG12345,
you said above:
"You aren't a Christian either and don't believe the Bible is God's word, yet in our debate you have argued Mark 10:18 states Jesus is not God... although the vast majority of Christians and Biblical scholars will tell you that in the passage Jesus is affirming, not denying His divinity. I don't tell you it is not your place to tell Christians how to interpret the Bible.

Having said this, if Islam is based on what is in the Quran and hadith, the fact remains that neither explicitly says that Adam was a prophet. Whether or not Muslims unanimously believe he was or wasn't doesn't change this fact."


Dear TG12345,
I know many Muslims who were Christians like you in my very close circle who say they never thought of Jesus as God even when they were Christians. Also do not forget that it is the same Bible that quotes Jesus saying he has a God when he said " to my father and your father, to my God and your God" or that "my father is greater than I" while ya'll try to impose that he and God are equal.

As far as the matter of whether Adam was given revelation, i.e. if he was also a messenger the answer is in both the Quran and the Bible.
We must first understand what is the purpose of prophets and messengers was? The purpose was to bring knowledge and guidance so people can distinguish between right and wrong, permissible and forbidden. This is what all the prophets or messengers did.
Let us see if Adam, according to the scriptures qualifies.
There are several places where we can find proof that Adam was indeed given guidance by God as well commandments to stay away from certain thing(s). Here in this example Hosea 6 gives us some proof.
(this is for those who believe in the Bible, and do not believe Muslim sources).
Please read: Hosea6:7 "But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant": This statement clearly states that Adam has a covenant with God, like Moses and other prophets did.
If you think about the whole matter of Adam being taken out of heaven, it is a proof in itself that that could have only happen after God has given him the rules, which we believe He did, and Adam broke that rule. So just in that is the proof that Adam received guidance from God. And that guidance was the word of God, thus he was the first prophet.
Hasan


Salaam Alaikum, honeto.

To answer your first point, though you may know some ex-Christians who didn't believe Jesus was God, that doesn't change the fact that this is what most Christians (and who are true to the Christian faith) believe and it also doesn't change the fact that the Bible says He is God.

When my wife lived overseas, she stayed in a host family whose dad was Muslim and despite of this he ate pork chops, drank alcohol and wouldn't pray or go to the mosque. A Muslim organization in my country is a loud supporter of "gay rights" and has people reinterpreting the Quran to challenge passages that make it clear homosexuality is a sin. And as I am sure you will point out, there are also some Christians who do this with the Bible.

http://www.muslimunion.ca/20070621.html

The point is don't make a judgement about a religion based on fringes... this applies to both violent fundamentalists and the "extreme liberals". Both our faiths have people like that.

That some Muslims drink alcohol doesn't mean the Quran says it is ok, and because some Christians deny Jesus is God does not mean they are in agreement with the Bible.

While on earth, Jesus made Himself inferior to the Father. If you had checked out my response to your statement on the link below you would have seen the relevant passage. I am pasting it again.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24482&PN=2

Philippians 2:5-11

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very naturea]">[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very natureb]">[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.


While on earth, Jesus chose to make Himself inferior to the Father, although He was in nature God as well. That is why He said the Father is greater than Him and why He called Him His God.

Islamispeace showed me a hadith that teaches Muslims believe Adam was a prophet. The Bible states Adam had a covenant with God, but this does not make him a prophet. God made once a covenant with the entire nation of Israel... does this mean they were all prophets? Of course not.

I understand that Islam teaches Adam was a prophet. Christianity does not teach this. We believe he was the first human being created, who messed up, and despite this God still provided for him and loved him. The story of Adam to us does not show how good he was, but rather how loving and merciful God is.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2013 at 7:16pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

LOL. Speaking of actually reading what the other person wrote, you may want to take into account that I wrote Mark 10:18 which, in our debate (off forum), you stated shows that Jesus did not dare to compare Himself to God.

I will post Mark 10:18 for you.

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

You got it confused with Mark 16:15-18.


So... ConfusedConfused double to you LOL.


Yes, I misread the verse you were talking about.  However, this doesn't change the fact that with regard to Mark 16, I still showed using Christian sources, that the verses pertaining to the miracles are not even authentic.

Originally posted by TG12345

Speaking of commentary on Mark 10:18, here is one:


Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And Jesus said unto him,.... The same as in Mat_. 19:17, See Gill on Matthew 19:17.

Why callest thou me good? This is said, not as denying that he was good, or as being angry with him for calling him so, but in order to lead this young man to a true knowledge of him, and his goodness, and even of his proper deity:

there is none good, but one, that is, God; some render it, "but one God", as the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions; and so the words are a proof of the unity of the divine being, and agree with Deuteronomy 6:4, but are not to be understood to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, who, with the Father, are the one God: nor do these words at all militate against the deity of Christ, or prove that he is not God, as the Jew objects (a); seeing this is not to be understood of the person of the Father, in opposition to the Son and Spirit, who are equally good: nor does Christ, in these words, deny himself to be God, but rather tacitly suggests it; since he is good in the same sense in which God is good: in Matthew it is added, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", Matthew 19:17, this Christ said not as his sense, that the way to eternal life lies in keeping the commandments of the law; but he speaks in the language of the Pharisees, and of this man; and his view is, to bring him to a sense of the impossibility of obtaining eternal life by these things, as the sequel shows: wherefore the above Jew (b) has no reason to confront the followers of Jesus with this passage, as if it was a concession of his, that it is impossible any should be saved without keeping the commands of the law of Moses.

(a) R. Isaac Chizzuk Emuna, par. 2. c. 19. p. 408. (b) Ib.

http://bible.cc/mark/10-18.htm

Most Christians also interpret it this way. Yet you, who are not a Biblical scholar, and many Muslims, interpret it to mean Jesus is saying He is not God.

I never said that most Christians do not interpret it that way.  Of course Christians would want the verse to say that Jesus is indeed "God"!  That is nothing new.  By the way, Webber is one "Christian" who would disagree with you!  See his above posts. 

But I do concede your point. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I don't get angry at you for providing your interpretation of some passages in the Bible or tell you that "your interpretation is meaningless" although most Christians and most Biblical scholars would disagree with you on that.
  

I didn't just say your opinions are "meaningless".  I said they are meaningless when compared to the unanimous agreement among Muslims that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  For you to argue otherwise is futile.

Originally posted by TG12345

Christian scholars are human beings. So are Muslim scholars. People are not infallible. Only God is. It is possible for a majority of scholars, scientists, lawmakers, teachers, professors, humanity to be wrong about something.

Certainly, which may explain why so many Christian scholars believe that Jesus is "God". 

Originally posted by TG12345

We are allowed to question their interpretations and views. They are not God.

Questioning must be done through facts and not on one's opinions.  You were quite insistent that Muslims are just "assuming" that Adam was a prophet and that the Quran and Hadiths are not clear. 

Originally posted by TG12345

You have presented no evidence before writing this post, that the Quran says Adam is a prophet.

I disagree.  The evidence presented, even before the last hadith I mentioned, showed conclusively that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.

Originally posted by TG12345

On the subject of the other threads, I am assuming you refer to the Great Flood, I have presented evidence of not only tafsir writers but also other scholars (I wrote that post a few hours ago, so I don't know when it will be up) but also a fatwa that states it was global and that it did drown all humanity, as well as versions of the Quran which state that the people on the Ark were "ancestors" and "mankind".

I look forward to seeing evidence of scholars that state the Flood was a regional event.

That is a separate topic and it will be discussed in that thread.

Originally posted by TG12345

Your opinion that in Mark 10:18 Jesus said He is not God matters even less then, since you are not an expert on Christianity and your opinion is far outweighed by Biblical scholars. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't change this fact.

In spite of this, I will not go around telling you that your views don't matter, because my faith is strong enough to hear and refute your statements and trying to shut down a conversation is a form of weakness in my view by claiming "this is what the majority of scholars think so you have no say in the matter".

Irregardless, the fact remains that you had not refuted any of the evidence I provided except by denying their significance on your own authority.  You did not present any counter evidence to show that Adam was actually not a prophet. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Thank you for finally showing a hadith that states this!!!! In light of this, I agree with you that there is definitely proof that according to Islam, Adam was a prophet.

Even before this hadith, it was clear that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet. 

 



  





Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 04 January 2013 at 4:23am
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Blessed be His Name.

Originally posted by TG12345

LOL. Speaking of actually reading what the other person wrote, you may want to take into account that I wrote Mark 10:18 which, in our debate (off forum), you stated shows that Jesus did not dare to compare Himself to God.

I will post Mark 10:18 for you.

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

You got it confused with Mark 16:15-18.


So... ConfusedConfused double to you LOL.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Yes, I misread the verse you were talking about.  However, this doesn't change the fact that with regard to Mark 16, I still showed using Christian sources, that the verses pertaining to the miracles are not even authentic.

That's nice, but it doesn't change the fact that in regards to Mark 10 you weren't.

Originally posted by TG12345

Speaking of commentary on Mark 10:18, here is one:


Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And Jesus said unto him,.... The same as in Mat_. 19:17, See Gill on Matthew 19:17.

Why callest thou me good? This is said, not as denying that he was good, or as being angry with him for calling him so, but in order to lead this young man to a true knowledge of him, and his goodness, and even of his proper deity:

there is none good, but one, that is, God; some render it, "but one God", as the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions; and so the words are a proof of the unity of the divine being, and agree with Deuteronomy 6:4, but are not to be understood to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, who, with the Father, are the one God: nor do these words at all militate against the deity of Christ, or prove that he is not God, as the Jew objects (a); seeing this is not to be understood of the person of the Father, in opposition to the Son and Spirit, who are equally good: nor does Christ, in these words, deny himself to be God, but rather tacitly suggests it; since he is good in the same sense in which God is good: in Matthew it is added, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", Matthew 19:17, this Christ said not as his sense, that the way to eternal life lies in keeping the commandments of the law; but he speaks in the language of the Pharisees, and of this man; and his view is, to bring him to a sense of the impossibility of obtaining eternal life by these things, as the sequel shows: wherefore the above Jew (b) has no reason to confront the followers of Jesus with this passage, as if it was a concession of his, that it is impossible any should be saved without keeping the commands of the law of Moses.

(a) R. Isaac Chizzuk Emuna, par. 2. c. 19. p. 408. (b) Ib.

http://bible.cc/mark/10-18.htm

Most Christians also interpret it this way. Yet you, who are not a Biblical scholar, and many Muslims, interpret it to mean Jesus is saying He is not God.

Originally posted by islamispeace

I never said that most Christians do not interpret it that way.  Of course Christians would want the verse to say that Jesus is indeed "God"!  That is nothing new.  By the way, Webber is one "Christian" who would disagree with you!  See his above posts. 

But I do concede your point.

Fair enough.

Rashad Khalifa is one "Muslim" who would disagree with you that the hadiths are a part of Islam. Isrshad Manji is another "Muslim" who would disagree... with both of us... that homosexuality is a sin.

Let's examine what each faith really teaches and not use theologies that most Christians and most Muslims reject. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I don't get angry at you for providing your interpretation of some passages in the Bible or tell you that "your interpretation is meaningless" although most Christians and most Biblical scholars would disagree with you on that.
  

Originally posted by islamispeace

I didn't just say your opinions are "meaningless".  I said they are meaningless when compared to the unanimous agreement among Muslims that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  For you to argue otherwise is futile.

I see what you meant. I thought you were getting upset with me challenging Muslim views on your faith while you are comfortable challenging Christian views on our faith.

Originally posted by TG12345

Christian scholars are human beings. So are Muslim scholars. People are not infallible. Only God is. It is possible for a majority of scholars, scientists, lawmakers, teachers, professors, humanity to be wrong about something.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Certainly, which may explain why so many Christian scholars believe that Jesus is "God".

We believe Jesus is God because He is. A majority of Muslims if not all falsely believe Jesus was not God, and that Muhammad was His "messenger". 

Originally posted by TG12345

We are allowed to question their interpretations and views. They are not God.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Questioning must be done through facts and not on one's opinions.  You were quite insistent that Muslims are just "assuming" that Adam was a prophet and that the Quran and Hadiths are not clear.

Because before you showed me that hadith, the other evidence did not explicitly say he was a prophet. Now I concede that the hadiths do teach that he was one. 

Originally posted by TG12345

You have presented no evidence before writing this post, that the Quran says Adam is a prophet.

Originally posted by islamispeace

I disagree.  The evidence presented, even before the last hadith I mentioned, showed conclusively that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet. 

It didn't. However, the last hadith you mentioned did.

Originally posted by TG12345

On the subject of the other threads, I am assuming you refer to the Great Flood, I have presented evidence of not only tafsir writers but also other scholars (I wrote that post a few hours ago, so I don't know when it will be up) but also a fatwa that states it was global and that it did drown all humanity, as well as versions of the Quran which state that the people on the Ark were "ancestors" and "mankind".

I look forward to seeing evidence of scholars that state the Flood was a regional event.

Originally posted by islamispeace

That is a separate topic and it will be discussed in that thread.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by TG12345

Your opinion that in Mark 10:18 Jesus said He is not God matters even less then, since you are not an expert on Christianity and your opinion is far outweighed by Biblical scholars. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't change this fact.

In spite of this, I will not go around telling you that your views don't matter, because my faith is strong enough to hear and refute your statements and trying to shut down a conversation is a form of weakness in my view by claiming "this is what the majority of scholars think so you have no say in the matter".

Originally posted by islamispeace

Irregardless, the fact remains that you had not refuted any of the evidence I provided except by denying their significance on your own authority.  You did not present any counter evidence to show that Adam was actually not a prophet.

My counter-evidence was the lack of proof from the Quran or hadiths that he was one. Then you presented a hadith that states he was. For that I thank you.  

Originally posted by TG12345

Thank you for finally showing a hadith that states this!!!! In light of this, I agree with you that there is definitely proof that according to Islam, Adam was a prophet.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Even before this hadith, it was clear that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.

I disagree. It is clear now though that Islam teaches he was a prophet.

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