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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: The concept of God's face in Christianity Post Reply Post New Topic
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 30 December 2012 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by honeto

TG12345,
you wrote: "While on earth, Jesus was both man and God, as man He did not know when the last day will be."

From where did you get that line, because nowhere in the Bible did Jesus claimed that "I am man and I am also God at the same time". It would have been clarified very clearly as such a thing had never happened in the entire time before him. Nowhere in the OT there is any indication that the Messiah will also be God.
So stop fooling yourself by repeating words of other like a parrot rather think logically and factually. There is no claim by Jesus in the whole present day Bible, OT or the NT where Jesus is said to be God or like you put it, "he is man and God". Get yourself out of the Pagan idea that God comes in form of humans or other creatures on earth. God is above all of that, pure, one and only.
Jesus is quoted to have said in the NT: "...to my God, and your God." If you speak the truth it would say, "I am returning to God and I am returning to myself"
Silly will it sound, silly it is.

You also contradict yourself without realizing when you say he was man and he was God at the same time. So if he did not know as a man when that day will be, according to you he was also God, was his God side sleeping at that time to tell him when it will be?
See it get sillier as you continue this silly notion of yours that he was man and he was god a the same time.
Take sime time, and really think about it my friend, and stop repeating what others put in your head without any explanation or sense.
Hasan


Salaam Alaikum, honeto.

Thank you for the post. InshAllah, I will provide you proof from the Bible where it is made very clear that Jesus is God.

Before doing so, however, I would ask you to not call my beliefs "silly". You may not agree with them, but you don't need to call them silly.

I don't call your belief that Muhammad was a prophet of God or that the Quran from God as "silly", although Muhammad said some things that are simply not true, and this is also the case of some of the things written in the Quran. I don't call your affirming your theology as "parroting" even though that some beliefs that most Muslims seem to hold are not stated in either the Quran or hadiths! An example is Adam being a prophet of God. With all due respect, I believe several aspects of your faith to be false, and can easily show you some major errors in it in both the Quran and hadiths that you hold to be an authentic record of what Muhammad said. However, I wouldn't call your beliefs "silly", that is an approach that is used by immature people who don't know how to hold a respectful discussion.

If you want more detail (on errors in your books) I can provide, though I would like to answer your assertions that a) the Bible does not teach Jesus is God and b) the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God and man.


The Bible does make it very clear that Jesus is God.

John 1:1-18

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea]">[a] it.

There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God andb]">[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

As these verses make clear, the Word was God and came down to earth as flesh. The Word was Jesus Christ.

John 14:5-14

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will knowb]">[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus here said that He is in the Father, and the Father in Him. He said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father.


John 10:22-39

22 Then came the Festival of Dedicationb]">[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than allc]">[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’d]">[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

In these verses, Jesus the Father is in Him, and that He is in the Father. He said that He and the Father are one.

Matthew 25:31-49

31 
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

This passage talks about Jesus judging the world, and deciding who will enter heaven and who will enter hell.

This is what God will do.


These are some passages that show that Jesus claimed He is God.


b) Now to show that Jesus was both God and man.

This was revealed by Paul, who at one time persecuted the early church, but was then converted by Jesus on the way to Damascus.

Colossians 1:15-20

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Jesus was the image of the invisible God, and the fullness of God dwelt in Him. He was, in other words, God in the flesh.

Phillipians 2:5-11

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very naturea]">[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very natureb]">[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.


Hebrews 4:15


15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin

Being both man and God, Jesus felt pain and weakness and did not know the Last Hour. He was however also sinless.


That God came down in the form of man and lived among us and taught us and suffered for us is not paganism, it shows His great love for us. It is a love that God in the Quran does not express to His creation. It is one thing to 'create' someone (parents do it all the time) and give him or her teachings and a set of rewards and punishments according to whether they listen or not. Both the Bible and Quran agree God does this.

 It is another thing though to love that person so much that you are willing to suffer to help them. This is what God did in the Bible- dying for us on the cross as Jesus and feeling the pain of a Dad watching his son die, as the Father.

I am a pacifist because of my faith and do not believe in violence in any circumstance but let me ask you this- who is a better military leader? One who gives orders to his soldiers and punishes and rewards them based on their conduct, or one who will do this but also join them in battle and take the same risks that they do?

Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Ammahma3k.


Edited by TG12345 - 31 December 2012 at 2:25pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 31 December 2012 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Hello Christians,

I would like to know from you what it means to 'seek' God's face in your religion.

Would you please indicate your faith about afterlife as well, ie do you believe in heaven and hell, heaven alone, no hell, Judgement day etc.

Thank you
Hello, greetings, Nausheen,
I had this song in my head this morning and realized it goes well to answer your question here.
 
~ show me Your ways
that I may walk with You
  show me Your ways
I put my trust in You
  the cry of my heart is to love You more
to live with the touch of Your hand
  stronger each day
show me Your ways ~
 
You can listen to it here if you want to;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmNOzJTgjFg

Blessings and salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 31 December 2012 at 12:30pm
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