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Message Icon Event: LET US FULFILL OUR OBLIGATIONS - Event Date: 11 December 2012 Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2012 at 9:40pm
I'm sorry Friendship,
 I did not mean to be offensive but I can see where I may have sounded terse.  I only meant that it has become redundant.  I think most of us get it by now... read this book.  Smile
Salaam,
CH

and I agree with you education is key.  The easiest way to promote education, where education is limited due to economy and/or lifestyle, is through talking to others... free speech... exchanging of ideas.


Edited by Caringheart - 16 December 2012 at 9:48pm
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2012 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne



Friendship, I'd like to change your initial statement to:
   
   
   The USA is accepted by many as one of the most civilized and advanced countries in the world.I think there would be fewer people like Pamela Geller, if mainstream Muslims decided the leave the silent majority and become advocates for a modern 21st-century Islam without politics and the baggage of 7th-century Arab culture which had found its way into the Qur'an and the Hadith. If millions of Muslims openly supported Muslims like Irshad Manji, people like Pamela Geller would soon disappear and non-Muslims in the West would no longer fear Islam's claim of world dominance.But the reality is discouraging. The Muslim Brotherhood was the first Islamist terror organization of the 20th century. Today they are the elected rulers of Egypt. The majority of Egyptians seem to endorse a new constitution that includes the discrimination of women, Christians and other religious minorities. Egypt is heading for disaster. Investors will avoid Egypt. Soon tourists will avoid Egypt too. The population voted for its own downfall. And Muslims in the West are silent. Muslims don't criticize Muslims.





Matt,
Muslims who respect knowledge and take it seriously have a criterion - they take it from people (scholars) who follow on the footsteps of Prophet muahammad (phuh), who emulate him (pbuh) in their private and public life.

Irshad Manji is a Lesbian, she cannot be our teacher. You have been pointed this our earlier as well. Your insisting on promoting her reflects one of the two things; either your ignorance of muslim tradition, or your disregard of it.

I, personally do not mind either of - but would still like to point this out to you, so that you may try to know a little more about us before making futile attempts of influencing or motivating us.   

As for 7th century Arab culture - the Arabs used to bury their daughters alive and treat women like chattel. Islam came to reform that and give women a position of honor and security. Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion and majority of converts into the faith are women.



Edited by Nausheen - 16 December 2012 at 10:38pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Friendship
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2012 at 3:01am
Assalamu alaika. Caringheart.

You behaving now like one who wants to follow Muhammad Rasulullah. I am fully aware of the economic downturn and that is the reason I am insisting of coming back to obey ONE ALLAH alone.
According to the teaching of Muhammad understanding and believing in Allah rotates on one (Caringheart) only knowing a letter, a word, a verse (sentence) and a chapter of the Qur'an. After knowing that then one has to follow the actions of Muhammad squarely in his life time.
We have problems with the Muslims. I like the West for their sensitivity to the life in this world. Look Japan throwing their prime Minister because he did not improve their economy! But the current PM was a PM before. What I am trying to assert and assure you is the current PM cannot do anything to improve the lots of his people. The lesson is from this verse: And Allah puts forward the example of a township (Makka after 610 A.D), that dwelt secure and well-content: its provision coming to it in abundance from every place, but it (its people) denied the Favors of Allah (with ungratefulness). So Allah made it taste extreme of hunger (famine) and fear, because of that (evil i.e. denying Muhammad Rasulullah) which they (its people) used to do." At that time Abu Sufyan was the leader of the Makkans. They beseech their gods to do away with the famine but failed. So he went to Madina and met Muhammad Rasulullah and addressed him, "Please beseech your Allah to remove famine from us in the manner Joseph removed famine from the Egyptians." So Muhammad prayed and the famine disappeared.
Now, in this story, there is certainly continuity of the Message for according to the Torah, Allah only listens to those righteous- his messengers and those after them who follow their way.
Look, I am not saying that the Japanse and you must convert to Islam that is to pray 5 times daily etc. I am emphasizing that the way of Muhammad is not practiced by those who profess his teaching. There are among his followers who know the reality and want to actualize it. You should support them and run away from their ignorant leaders. You can only do that through correct knowledge!
I will not mention that book again since you do not have the resources to buy it.

Friendship.

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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2012 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Matt Browne. I do not think we can go further because you and the rest do not know and therefore cannot understand what Muhammad came to do. I and any true believer in Muhammad do not take and refer to someone's actions as a model. The model I have is that of Muhammad Rasulullah. So, it is sinful for any believer to refer to someone's actions unless they conform to that of Muhammad Rasulullah. Why is that you do not read what we are trying to explain to you? I am not interested in what the 'Arabs are saying or doing as I have explained in the book ISBN: 978-1-60976-919-2 - Please quote Muhammad or decline to comment on his actions. You regard the Arabs superior to me?


Friendship, you must be aware that I'm a Christian. I am not a true believer in Muhammad, but I do respect him. As someone who's interested in knowledge I want to understand the key teachings of all world religions, which doesn't mean that I agree with all of them. I greatly respect all tolerant Muslims. I respect you and your beliefs if they are tolerant in their nature. You seem to be promoting a Rasulullah Islam, which is somewhat different from Sunni or Shia Islam. I tried to understand your view, which is available here

http://epubco.com/samples/978-1-62212-637-8Sample.pdf

but found it very complicated. And I disagree with all supremacy claims. I believe in freedom. People have to be free to choose their religion. People can support or reject Muhammad Rasulullah's views and you need to accept this. If people don't want to be Christians, I have to accept this and I do. No compulsion in religion.

Today, only 20% of all Muslims are Arabs, yet Arab culture forces itself on the other 80% of Muslims. That was my point.



Edited by Matt Browne - 17 December 2012 at 8:05am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2012 at 8:28am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Irshad Manji is a Lesbian, she cannot be our teacher. You have been pointed this our earlier as well. Your insisting on promoting her reflects one of the two things; either your ignorance of muslim tradition, or your disregard of it.


I am very surprised by your statement. I was under the impression that you are a very intelligent and well educated woman, but this post amounts to something like intellectual bankruptcy. Instead of finding valid counterarguments to what Ms. Manji is saying, you declare that she must be wrong, because she's a lesbian. This is like saying that E=m*c^2 cannot be true, because Einstein is a Jew and Jews are not true believers. So I'd like to ask you to reconsider: why do you disagree with the views expressed by Ms. Manji (other than homosexuality of course)? Why do you disagree with her views about the silent Muslim majority? Why can't you consider her contributions to the debates about progress and peace? Because she is a lesbian?

I'm not ignoring Muslim traditions, but I believe in progress. Slavery was part of Muslim tradition. Is this tradition worth keeping? Discrimination against women is part of Sharia traditions? Are these traditions worth keeping? The discrimination against homosexuals is part of Christian and Muslim tradition. Is this tradition worth keeping?
 
Originally posted by Nausheen

As for 7th century Arab culture - the Arabs used to bury their daughters alive and treat women like chattel. Islam came to reform that and give women a position of honor and security. Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion and majority of converts into the faith are women.


Yes, there was some progress, but it stopped when the Islamic Golden Age ended. Mainstream Muslims worldwide should embrace all human rights and the secular model. Mainstream Muslims should stop making supremacy claims ('we are the best people, we are better than everyone else').

Frequent thoughts of the US being superior to all other countries poisons American brains and damages the relationship between America and the rest of the world.

Frequent thoughts of Islam being superior to all other religions poisons Muslim brains and damages the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims.

Again and again here on Islamicity there's talk about the one and only one truth and the distortions of holy books other than the Qur'an. What does this accomplish?


Edited by Matt Browne - 17 December 2012 at 8:36am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Friendship
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2012 at 10:23am
Assalamu alaikum.

You said: Today, only 20% of all Muslims are Arabs, yet Arab culture forces itself on the other 80% of Muslims. That was my point.
Response: This is most unfortunate. You do not know the implication of your statement because you are not only a follower of Muhammad, but one who does not know what it is to be a follower of Muhammad. This is what I am trying to fight and change through your assistance and help. 100% of the Muslims are illiterate for they follow the Arabs blindly in the manner they worship. We need you to understand this and as I mentioned in some of my posts you should exhibit the indirect obedience and submission to the actions of Muhammad in seeing that the correct way of worship is practiced in your countries.
Secondly, I mentioned that I do not consider you as a Christian but a Muslim for there is no where in the Bible Jesus son of Maryam called or addressed his followers as Christians. Muhammad never did that.
The question of freedom is limited. Sometimes I do not like to go sleep but I have no freedom to refuse. My bed is wide but I sleep in less then 90% of its area. I do not like to go to toilet but I am forced. Yes, there is freedom but there is attended consequence in refusing to use ones power of discrimination in avoiding evil and following the Messenger. Remember the initial judgment passed on Jesus son of Maryam by Heraclius and Pillate.
Note, I do not expect you to understand that book in a short time. I have been studying the Bible (in particular the Old Testament for it much closer to the Qur'an) for 52 years now. Imagine I began yesterday! I am sure if you have been studying the Bible and its commentary for 52 years you would have understood that book.


Friendship.

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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2012 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne



You seem to be promoting a Rasulullah Islam, which is somewhat different from Sunni or Shia Islam. I tried to understand your view, which is available herehttp://epubco.com/samples/978-1-62212-637-8Sample.pdfbut found it very complicated.



Matt,
I'd respond to your post to me in detail when I have more time than right now.
Just wanted to clarify a small issue in your post of Friendship.

RasuluAllah means 'Rasul of Allah' or Messenger of Allah.

It is the title of Muhammad (pbuh). Its not any particular form of Islam.

Peace to you.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Friendship
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:56am
Assalamu alaikum.

They neither buy or pick the fruit. They neither chew it. Everything they want is given to them without tilling the land!
This is the principal cause of our wars economic downturns and social unrest. I did not read and understood what Matt said until now.
yet they say: Education is essential. yet they dispute and disagree! What a paradox! Muhammad Rasulullah Islam?

Friendship.
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