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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2013 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by iec786

Hi sister Caringheart,
Why did you refrain from the original sin storey?
Were you born in sin as the Bible says or would you be born innocent as the Quraan says?

Greetings ismail,

Does it matter?
Yes, I believe we are born with original sin... it is obvious in our nature and our attraction to doing sinful things.

Paul had these wise words that I truly think we all can relate to:
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

But with God all things are possible.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

But does it matter that I believe we are born with this sin nature,
or that you believe we are not born with this sin nature?


Either way, we are the same...
We must turn to God to escape from sin.
We both believe in turning to God and asking forgiveness,
the only difference is that, when I turn to God, I repent and gain the strength through the Love of my Lord, to turn away from future sin, so that I do not go on sinning and go on asking for the same forgiveness again and again. 
6 What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in acceptance of His death, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 Knowing this, then, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law[of sin], but under grace.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Note:  scriptures with emphasis added by me for additional clarity and understanding... I refer to KJV as well as NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

I receive the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome, when I confess and repent.  Do you also?

Salaam and blessings,
CLynn



Edited by Caringheart - 27 September 2013 at 7:38pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2013 at 11:06am
Hi sister Caringheart,
I came across this verse and thought how does it fits with Paul's teaching of just believe and all is well.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

It seems paul just nailed the teaching of the Old Testament to the cross.

Peace to you and your family.
Ismail

Edited by iec786 - 29 September 2013 at 11:06am
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 22 November 2013 at 10:51am
Hi iec,

Quote from Ezekiel 18:20.
It seems Paul just nailed the teaching of the Old Testament to the cross.

Response: --- You need to read the full context of the “Righteousness of God” in Ezekiel 18:
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

--- One of the original laws said in Numbers 14:
18 ‘The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’
--- (Often the sins of the fathers influenced their children to continue in their path, and it would continue till there was a decided turning again to God.)

Ezekiel was written after Jeremiah where God prophesied through him, the New Covenant, in Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

--- And this prophesy was fulfilled in the coming of Jesus Christ, as written in Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

--- Jesus introduced the Holy Spirit which indwelt Him through His life on earth, and was conferred on the Apostles and disciples on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2), after His ascension.
This indwelling Holy Spirit is given to believing Christians, who then have “The laws of God in their minds and written on their hearts.”

Paul was simply preaching what God did and what Jesus taught about following Him, as He said in John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Placid
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2013 at 12:33pm
Hi Placid,

Response: --- You need to read the full context of the “Righteousness of God” in Ezekiel 18:
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

This is exactly what i am telling you.The fairytale of Jesus died on the cross so all are saved by the blood and gore of Jesus,the other fancy word that paul came up with is We are saved through grace.What a load of baloney.Back to the quote

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.If you repent you will be forgiven.Not because someone died on the cross.This was Paul nailing the law to the cross.



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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2013 at 1:59pm
Hi iec,

Quote: This is exactly what i am telling you.The fairytale of Jesus died on the cross so all are saved by the blood and gore of Jesus,the other fancy word that paul came up with is We are saved through grace.What a load of baloney.Back to the quote
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.If you repent you will be forgiven.Not because someone died on the cross.This was Paul nailing the law to the cross.

Response: --- Verse 18 is from the OT where men were judged by their works according to the Law. When the Jews defied the law so that not many of them were following it, or being saved, --- as I said in the Post, God gave a “New Covenant,” which replaced the OT laws except for the Ten Commandments, which is a ‘Code of Ethics,’ or ‘Criterion of right and wrong,’ --- for all generations.
In the New Covenant God said, “I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

You are wrong to think that Paul changed anything or invented new words.
The word ‘grace’ was introduced with Jesus, as it says in John 1:
17 “For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”
--- Jesus had to die before He could be resurrected. --- Also the OT law said that “Without the shedding of blood there was no remission (forgiveness).”
You may not understand this but that is why there were animal sacrifices all through the OT. --- Since Jesus rose from death, He made it possible that those who believe in God and accept His sacrifice for sin, CAN be saved. --- However, only those who commit their way unto God and believe in Jesus and follow Him will know this benefit. --- It says in Surah 3:
50 --- “So keep your duty to Allah and obey Me.
51 Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord so worship Him. That is a Straight path.”

Let’s look at how Paul explains it to the Church of the Ephesians 2:
8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

This is speaking to believers and explaining to them the Gift of grace:
8 For by (God’s) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. (A gift cannot be paid for, or it is not a gift.)
9 Not of works (not of anything we have done), lest anyone should boast.
10 For we (believers) are His workmanship (workers or servants), created in Christ Jesus (re-created, or ‘born again’ by the Spirit of God) for good works --- (this becomes the believer’s lifestyle after his conversion, to do God's good works),
--- ‘which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.’

God has a life pattern for us to follow in doing the ‘good works’ that we are to do for Him.
--- This is also what it says in the Quran, we must have faith in God, before we do ‘good works’ for Him, does it not?
It says some 60 times, “Believe and do good works.” --- Without believing in God, ‘good works’ are just good works. --- (Are these a few more goads?)

Placid
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2013 at 10:02pm
Hi Placid,


Response: --- Verse 18 is from the OT where men were judged by their works according to the Law. When the Jews defied the law so that not many of them were following it, or being saved, --- as I said in the Post, God gave a “New Covenant,” which replaced the OT laws

So we can now remove the OT because God gave a “New Covenant,” which replaced the OT laws So out with the old and in with the new.My question to you is why are you holding the old testament in your Bible?

quote
In the New Covenant God said, “I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

God said????God said nothing.


8 For by (God’s) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. (A gift cannot be paid for, or it is not a gift.)


Lollll come now Placid i am sure you can do better then that.

King James Bible
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.Matthew 12:36
I will let you explain
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2013 at 7:12am
Hi iec,

Quote: So we can now remove the OT because God gave a “New Covenant,” which replaced the OT laws So out with the old and in with the new. My question to you is why are you holding the old testament in your Bible?

Response: --- The OT records the beginnings and the History of the Jews, who were God's chosen people. It follows them through good and bad, and gave the promise that they would be revived in the Last Day.

The OT contains all the prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus and the NT.

--- (I see that your last post was on December 4,2013, at 10:02 pm. --- So the New Covenant started with the birth of Jesus --- about year 1.)
Even the Calendar started over with the coming of Jesus.

I guess you don't understand a New Covenant with God, who sent Jesus to introduce the "Gift" of Salvation through Faith. --- That is what "Grace" is.

It gives the fulfillment of this Prophecy in Hebrews 8:
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

--- What was made obsolete were the laws given to the Jews for their discipline and obedience. --- What was retained for every Generation was the Code of Ethics "The Ten Commandments," which are referred to in the Quran as the "Criterion of right and wrong, given to Moses and Aaron. 2:53, 2:185, 3:4, 21:48, 25:1.

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2013 at 10:10am
I see that ICE786 has presented a very strong case against original sin theory. Great job, may Allah reward you for your efforts to show the truth to those who seek it.
I will add this verse which I think also goes against the original sin theory or claim. "Becoming like little children, sinless":
"King James Bible. Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 10 December 2013 at 10:12am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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