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Message Icon Topic: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS Post Reply Post New Topic
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 6:49am
Hi Mahdi and others,

As I said previously, in a quote from Dake’s Bible commentary:
“Of 618 Greek Manuscripts that contain the Gospels, only 2 do not have these verses.”
--- In the Amplified Bible a footnote says, (Verses 9-20, are not in the two earliest manuscripts.)
And in the New King James Version a footnote says:
[These verses are not in the Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark have them.]

The reason I say they are 'authentic' is because they reflect Peter, the ‘source person’ and ‘co-author’ of the Gospel of Mark.
As I said before, --- Mark recorded the events up until the Resurrection, which was the Victory over Death, and the Defeat of Satan.

Mark ended it this way in 16:
8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

--- The instruction in verse 7 was, --- “But go and tell His disciples and -- PETER.”
But, according to Mark, they didn’t tell anyone.

--- However, the one who came first to the tomb, Mary Magdalene, did go and tell Peter and John, as is recorded in John’s Gospel in 20:
1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb.
4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple (John) outran Peter and came to the tomb first.

--- So, Peter was the eye witness, and he obviously composed the added verses that were included in all of the newer manuscripts.

Notice, --- that Peter starts over again in verse 9, from verse 1, where it says, “Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene.”

How does Peter describe her? --- “Out of whom He (Jesus) had cast seven demons.”
--- Peter was the ‘Pentecostal’ in the Book of Acts. --- God had given him the gifts of healing and miracles, and Peter had not only seen Jesus perform miracles of healing and deliverance, --- but he was the one that God used to convince the Jews that Jesus did confer God’s Holy Spirit on believers, that they could be healed by the laying on of hands, verse 18.

Peter described Mary as ‘one who had been delivered of seven demons.’
--- This deliverance is recorded in Luke 8:
1 Now it came to pass, afterward, that He went through every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with Him,
2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, — Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons,

The Pentecostal and Apostolic Churches of today came from the pattern of the Day of Pentecost, and the gifts of the Spirit that were manifested through the Apostles in the Book of Acts, --- properly called "The Acts of the Apostles."
--- Peter was the leader in the healing and deliverance ministry, --- that the following verses are about.
--- (More on them next)


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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 7:30am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.


Well said.  I feel the same way!

Dear Islamispeace and MahditheSeeker,

Salaam Alaikum.
MahditheSeeker claims that the day he will find a "true believer" anywhere in the universe (based on Mark 16:15) he will believe the Bible, and islamispeace claims he feels the same way.

MARK 16:15-18 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well" 

I want to preface the following by stating I believe this was meant for the early church, and these signs were meant to demonstrate God's power to the unbelievers. I do not believe that Christians today are called to do these things, although I do believe that in some cases God does these things through people.

Having said this, you claim that if you find a person anywhere in the universe doing the things in Mark 16:15, you will believe the Bible.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153933/Revealed-The-secretive-deadly-church-services-Appalachias-serpent-handlers-lift-rattlesnakes-heads-drink-poison-God.html#ixzz1wnVo5c1t


James Nye from Mail Online visited a pentecostal church in the US whose members have handled poisonous snakes and drank strychinine during servcies... and continue to do so. It is one of many such churches, which takes Mark 16:15 literally and believes it applies to believers in the 20th/21st century.

Between 1920s and when this article was written, around 100 church snake bite related deaths have been documented. However, thousands have handled these snakes.

It is estimated that up to 100 people have died in the 100 or so years since the practice began, which supporters claim is a small number considering thousands of worshipers have handled thousands of deadly snakes in that time.

Also, the snake handlers also take in strychinine.

Aware of the public fascination with serpent handling, Wolford wanted to use his platform to spread his beliefs to a new younger congregation.

But, even if holding the rattlesnakes and copperheads wasn't dangerous enough, serpent handlers also ingest deadly strychnine during services.

'In my life I’ve probably drunk two gallons of it,' said Wolford.

National Geographic interviewed Tom Burton, a professor who studied such churches and attended their services for over 30 years. He claims only certain individuals commonly handled such serpents. Commonly handled would mean they do this pretty regularly.

Tom Burton, a professor emeritus at East Tennessee State University, has attended many snake-handling services and studied the practice for over 30 years. He's the author of Serpent Handling Believers, an authoritative study of the belief. Burton says that much of what goes on at such churches would be familiar to other Christians. "If you were there when they were not taking up serpents, or even during other parts of a service where they did, it would be like many other Pentecostal groups," he explained. "There is singing, preaching, laying on of hands, praying, testifying, and that sort of thing. It's kind of an expressive church service where people freely share emotions, a very participatory service like most Pentecostal services."

But those anointed by the Holy Spirit answer the calling by taking up the deadly reptiles or by drinking poisons. Burton said: "Only certain individuals commonly handle serpents, and it goes without saying that they warn people: 'If you're not directed by the Holy Ghost to do this, you'd better not.'"


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers_2.html

The snake handling, poison drinking church has been visited by many reporters, researches, tv crews and photographers.

For years, this tiny church in an unincorporated hamlet of 1,191 souls has been world-famous for its death-defying handlers of serpents. Reporters, researchers, photographers and TV crews have come here to track Pentecostals who brandish poisonous snakes, drink strychnine and play with fire as a testimony of their faith.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-11-10/lifestyle/35281689_1_snake-handlers-drink-strychnine-wolford

Here is a CNN video of church members handling deadly snakes during a service in the Appalachia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwBVcsWYJd8

I believe the Bible is true, but not on the basis of such things. It is true because it is God's word and shows God for Who He is and what He has done for us, this is what I believe.

However, you stated you would believe it to be true if you found one person in the entire universe who can do the things in Mark 16. Well, there certainly are Christians today who can handle snakes and drink poison without being harmed.

I personally hope that if you do give your life to Jesus, you will do it because you find that what the Bible says about God is true not because of snake handlers in Appalachia, but I just found your comment to be interesting and I guess if I were to hold you to your word I would demand that you believe the Bible based on what you said. However, I wouldn't do such a thing to you, and will keep discussing with you and praying for you instead.

Salaam. Smile





Edited by TG12345 - 22 December 2012 at 2:42pm
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 11:29am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace. The hadith does clearly say that eating 7 dates in the morning will protect a person from poison. The hadith does not say what types of poisons, it says "poison". Poison is defined as any substance that can cause a person harm.


I agree, but as I said and showed, there is no indication that when the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said "poison", he did not indicate what type or if all poisonous substances were included.  The proof for this is in the hadith I showed about a person being bitten by a snake or stung by a scorpion.  Would you agree that snake or scorpion venom is a "substance that can cause a person harm"?  And yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not say that dates can protect a person against snake venom.

Moreover, I showed that the hadiths have a medical context, not a spiritual one, which is the case with Mark 16.  Not one Christian can claim to have met the promise of Mark 16.  The bar was clearly set too high.  In contrast, the hadiths you referred to were speaking of the medicinal benefits of dates, which as I have shown, is scientifically accurate.  I even provided a citation from a peer-reviewed study which showed that date seeds had a protective effect against toxic substances like liver malondialdehyde.  Do you think that such substances cannot "cause a person harm"?

Originally posted by TG12345

understand that dates do have medicinal value, but that isn't what the hadiths I cited were saying. They say that if a person eats 7 of them, he or she will be immune to poison (or magic) for the day. Nothing more, nothing less.


You are basing that on your own authority.  Obviously, and no offense intended, you have no authority in explaining to Muslims how a hadith should be interpreted.  I will accept the authority of an established scholar like Imam Bukhari, who placed these hadiths in the section under "Medicine".  In fact, the very next hadith, as I showed, states clearly that dates have health benefits.  That is the context by which the hadiths you referred to should be read. 

Originally posted by TG12345

You say there could be a context, meaning that the author meant they protect against only certain kinds of poisons, and back then it was all that people had medicinally speaking so it was better than doing nothing. Likewise, it was best to just pray if bitten by a scorpion, whereas now we shouldn't rely only on prayer in this type of situation but also use medicine.
 

When did I say this?  If you read my response carefully, I wrote the following:

"Of course, with modern medicine and such things as "anti-venom", it is not necessary to resort to these types of remedies, although prayer is still important.  People in those days used whatever they could.  In modern times, we have more options."

What I was saying was that we have more options in modern times than people did in those days.  I also said that prayer is still important, because no matter how many medical advances we make, ultimately our fate is in God's hands.

Originally posted by TG12345

Why is the possibility not feasible for you that the passage in Mark also came within a context, and applied to a certain period in time only? People in the Book of Acts did handle snakes, heal people, speak in tongues. Perhaps there are still come Christians who are able to do this today, perhaps not. But these things did already happen, so Christ's words were shown to be true.


I would love for you to explain what the "context" is.  There have been different responses so far.  I think the context is pretty clear, though:

"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”"

It states that all who believe will be able to drive out demons and drink poison and survive.  I have heard that people "speak in tongues" in various churches.  So why don't we also hear reports of people drinking poison and surviving?  Why has that phenomenon apparently disappeared?

Originally posted by TG12345

If people are going to try to 'disprove' Mark 16 on the basis that Christians today are for the most part unable to miraculously heal or speak in tongues or handle poisonous snakes, then it is as easy to 'disprove'  Muhammad's words in numbers 663 and 664 by noticing that if a person eats 7 dates at 6:00 AM and then eats a significant dose of rat poison at 9:00 AM, he will be dead or severely harmed in the next 60 minutes, long before night comes.


Even if what you claim about the hadiths is true, which it is not, the problem of Mark 16 still remains.  Therefore, you have done nothing to answer the questions that have been asked on this thread, as has every other Christian who has posted.  All you have done is to commit a red herring and change the subject.  It certainly would not make anyone want to convert to Christianity.  The worst case scenario is that we would both need to renounce our faiths (if your interpretation of the hadiths is correct) and either become atheists/agnostics or perhaps deists. 


Edited by islamispeace - 22 December 2012 at 11:33am
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...


Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace. The hadith does clearly say that eating 7 dates in the morning will protect a person from poison. The hadith does not say what types of poisons, it says "poison". Poison is defined as any substance that can cause a person harm.


Originally posted by islamispeace

I agree, but as I said and showed, there is no indication that when the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said "poison", he did not indicate what type or if all poisonous substances were included.  The proof for this is in the hadith I showed about a person being bitten by a snake or stung by a scorpion.  Would you agree that snake or scorpion venom is a "substance that can cause a person harm"?  And yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not say that dates can protect a person against snake venom.

Muhammad said that the dates should be taken in the morning, according to the hadith. If the man was bitten by a scorpion sometime not in the morning, then it would have been senseless to offer him the dates. Number 663 and 664 do not say to take the dates after something bad has happened, but to take them in the morning and if one does so, one will not be touched by poison or magic.

Number 5083 makes clear that the dates contain antidote affects in the morning.

Sunan Abu Dawud is not an authentic hadith, unlike Bukhari and Muslim, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up. The man who came to see Muhammad for help was not suffering from poisoning, but from heart sickness.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Moreover, I showed that the hadiths have a medical context, not a spiritual one, which is the case with Mark 16.  Not one Christian can claim to have met the promise of Mark 16.  The bar was clearly set too high.

There are some Christians who handle poisonous snakes and do not get bitten. There are some Christians who drink poison like strychnine and do not get harmed or die (see previous post, when it passes the review lol).  There are cases where people have claimed to have been healed by prayer.

In the Book of Acts, the early church did all these things, and it was on a widespread scale. I believe that Mark 16 was in regards to the early church, and I cited Biblical scholars who agree.

Originally posted by islamispeace

In contrast, the hadiths you referred to were speaking of the medicinal benefits of dates, which as I have shown, is scientifically accurate.  I even provided a citation from a peer-reviewed study which showed that date seeds had a protective effect against toxic substances like liver malondialdehyde.  Do you think that such substances cannot "cause a person harm"?

Did the hadith say that 7 dates in the morning protect against liver malondialdehyde, or that they protect against magic and poison?

Originally posted by TG12345

understand that dates do have medicinal value, but that isn't what the hadiths I cited were saying. They say that if a person eats 7 of them, he or she will be immune to poison (or magic) for the day. Nothing more, nothing less.


Originally posted by islamispeace

You are basing that on your own authority.

I am basing it on what the hadith says.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Obviously, and no offense intended, you have no authority in explaining to Muslims how a hadith should be interpreted.  I will accept the authority of an established scholar like Imam Bukhari, who placed these hadiths in the section under "Medicine".  In fact, the very next hadith, as I showed, states clearly that dates have health benefits.  That is the context by which the hadiths you referred to should be read. 

No offense intended, but you need to start taking your own advice. Albert Barnes knows more about the Bible than you do, yet you ignored his words that I posted earlier.

The other two hadith you showed did absolutely nothing to dispel the notion that dates prevent poison from harming a person if they are eaten in the morning.

Originally posted by TG12345

You say there could be a context, meaning that the author meant they protect against only certain kinds of poisons, and back then it was all that people had medicinally speaking so it was better than doing nothing. Likewise, it was best to just pray if bitten by a scorpion, whereas now we shouldn't rely only on prayer in this type of situation but also use medicine.
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

When did I say this?  If you read my response carefully, I wrote the following:

"Of course, with modern medicine and such things as "anti-venom", it is not necessary to resort to these types of remedies, although prayer is still important.  People in those days used whatever they could.  In modern times, we have more options."

What I was saying was that we have more options in modern times than people did in those days.  I also said that prayer is still important, because no matter how many medical advances we make, ultimately our fate is in God's hands.

OK, I misunderstood you. I apologize for that.

Originally posted by TG12345

Why is the possibility not feasible for you that the passage in Mark also came within a context, and applied to a certain period in time only? People in the Book of Acts did handle snakes, heal people, speak in tongues. Perhaps there are still come Christians who are able to do this today, perhaps not. But these things did already happen, so Christ's words were shown to be true.


Originally posted by islamispeace

I would love for you to explain what the "context" is.  There have been different responses so far.  I think the context is pretty clear, though:

"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”"

It states that all who believe will be able to drive out demons and drink poison and survive.  I have heard that people "speak in tongues" in various churches.  So why don't we also hear reports of people drinking poison and surviving?  Why has that phenomenon apparently disappeared?

Read Barne's commentary that I pasted for you. Furthermore, there are people who do drink poison and church and survive. However, these signs were meant for the early church.

Originally posted by TG12345

If people are going to try to 'disprove' Mark 16 on the basis that Christians today are for the most part unable to miraculously heal or speak in tongues or handle poisonous snakes, then it is as easy to 'disprove'  Muhammad's words in numbers 663 and 664 by noticing that if a person eats 7 dates at 6:00 AM and then eats a significant dose of rat poison at 9:00 AM, he will be dead or severely harmed in the next 60 minutes, long before night comes.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Even if what you claim about the hadiths is true, which it is not, the problem of Mark 16 still remains.  Therefore, you have done nothing to answer the questions that have been asked on this thread, as has every other Christian who has posted.

I answered the claim already, before posting my 'challenge' to MahditheSeeker. I provided you Barne's commentary. I have also shown you that according to the Book of Acts, the early church did these things. I have also shown you a few cases in the modern times when Christians have drank poisons, handled deadly snakes, etc.

Originally posted by islamispeace

All you have done is to commit a red herring and change the subject.

Maybe you are the one who missed my answer, because I did respond.

Originally posted by islamispeace

  It certainly would not make anyone want to convert to Christianity.  The worst case scenario is that we would both need to renounce our faiths (if your interpretation of the hadiths is correct) and either become atheists/agnostics or perhaps deists. 

I'm not ready to renounce God, and never will be.


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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 3:28pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it...

I think it is funny to see you using this argument when it is what I have been saying to you, yet when I say it, you reject it. Shocked


What on earth are you talking about?  I have been asking you for proof of your claims.  What do you think I meant by "proof"?  That is what I am asking "Salaam Erin" to provide as well.  All you said was that you had heard "reports" of "miracles", but when I asked you to prove these "reports", all I got was silence!  LOL

Now, since you have broken your silence by interjecting into my discussion with "Salaam Erin", perhaps you can answer the question that you have been avoiding:

If you heard "reports" that Hindu idols were drinking milk, would you believe these as well, because as you say, 'who are you to judge what goes on in other parts of the world"?

Why are you so afraid to answer this question??



Edited by islamispeace - 22 December 2012 at 3:30pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it...

I think it is funny to see you using this argument when it is what I have been saying to you, yet when I say it, you reject it. Shocked


If you heard "reports" that Hindu idols were drinking milk, would you believe these as well, because as you say, 'who are you to judge what goes on in other parts of the world"?

Why are you so afraid to answer this question??



islam...

I have answered your question, as I have been answering your questions... I neither believe, nor disbelieve... there are things not within my realm to judge.  Things I have neither exposure to, nor knowledge of.

I have no reason not to believe, or to believe.  Just because it seems beyond my belief does not mean it is not possible.  Was it possible that Moses' staff was turned into a snake?  Was it possible truly that the reed sea parted for the Israelites to pass but closed upon the egyptians?  Do I have proof?  Or do I have belief?  Does my belief make a thing true or untrue?  Who am I to discard the belief of others as untrue when I have no first hand exposure or knowledge?
There are statues of the Virgin Mary that are said to weep tears of blood.

You see, people have answered your questions, it's just that your ears are blocked because you are not hearing what you want to hear, and you do not stretch your mind to take in the answers that are given.  You are not truly seeking to understand other people.

Salaam... seek peace,
CH
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 6:55am
To continue from the first Post on Page 7)

Mark 16:9 mentions Mary Magdalene, who did tell Peter and John that Jesus was risen. --- and he identified Mary as “Out of whom He had cast 7 demons.” --- Which introduces the deliverance ministry which is mentioned in the later verses.

Then Peter goes on to tell of the next ones that Jesus appeared to in Mark 16:
12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.
--- (Here is the evidence that the Gospel writers shared their writings because this experience is recorded in Luke’s Gospel.)

--- Peter and Mark had been in Rome for a few years before Paul and Luke came. --- And since Luke also finished his Gospel account in Rome before publishing it in Greece, --- Peter and Mark would have seen what Luke had written, --- and verse 12 referred to this appearance of Jesus in Luke 24:
13 Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them.
16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.
17 And He said to them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?”
18 Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?”
19 And He said to them, “What things?”
So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him.
21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened.
22 Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us.
23 When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive.
24 And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.”
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
28 Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther.
29 But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them.

30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them.
31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.
32 And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?”
33 So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,
34 saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!”
35 And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.
(Again, enough for now.)


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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 2:38pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it...

I think it is funny to see you using this argument when it is what I have been saying to you, yet when I say it, you reject it. Shocked


If you heard "reports" that Hindu idols were drinking milk, would you believe these as well, because as you say, 'who are you to judge what goes on in other parts of the world"?

Why are you so afraid to answer this question??



islam...

I have answered your question, as I have been answering your questions... I neither believe, nor disbelieve... there are things not within my realm to judge.  Things I have neither exposure to, nor knowledge of.

I have no reason not to believe, or to believe.  Just because it seems beyond my belief does not mean it is not possible.  Was it possible that Moses' staff was turned into a snake?  Was it possible truly that the reed sea parted for the Israelites to pass but closed upon the egyptians?  Do I have proof?  Or do I have belief?  Does my belief make a thing true or untrue?  Who am I to discard the belief of others as untrue when I have no first hand exposure or knowledge?
There are statues of the Virgin Mary that are said to weep tears of blood.

You see, people have answered your questions, it's just that your ears are blocked because you are not hearing what you want to hear, and you do not stretch your mind to take in the answers that are given.  You are not truly seeking to understand other people.

Salaam... seek peace,
CH


I have asked for proof.  None of you have provided that.  Your best answer is essentially "I can't say..." 

So, you are willing to at least give credence to reports of Hindu idols miraculously drinking milk.  Would you be willing to research this phenomenon?  Would be willing to research the claims of statues of Mary weeping blood?  In short, would you be willing to investigate all reports of "miracles", regardless of the religion of the people involved, from an unbiased and impartial point of view?  Or would you investigate reports of Hindu miracles with a certain level of bias (such as thinking in the back of your mind that these reports cannot be true)?

I wonder if the other Christians on this forum are willing to do the same.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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