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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS Post Reply Post New Topic
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Topic: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS
    Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:37pm
MARK 16;15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"




i am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 26 November 2012 at 4:49pm
This is a great topic.  Ironically, Mark 16:15 is part of a later addition to the Gospel of Mark.  According to scholars, the earliest manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark ended with verse 8!  The NIV states this fact clearly:

"The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20." [1]
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 26 November 2012 at 8:29pm
I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural.
There are those, however, still today, who are known to be healers by the 'laying on of hands', and I understand that people 'speak in tongues' in the Pentacostal churches.(It is one of the reasons a friend of my daughters left the Pentacostal church, and sought another denomination, once she was grown and on her own. She was never comfortable with the whole speaking in tongues thing.) 
Healings and miracles are said happen far more often in the less developed countries where minds are still open to belief.  I have heard of people that have seen miracles in the lesser developed countries.
I myself say that I have had miracles in my life, but I can not prove them to anyone.  One has to be open to believing.
I am undecided about the whole laying on of hands because it is in the Bible, but it is also in the Bible to have nothing to do with necromancers.  How does one determine if the healing or miracle is from God or from sorcery?


Edited by Caringheart - 26 November 2012 at 8:34pm
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Salaam_Erin
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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2012 at 3:43am
i am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

This is a great topic. Ironically, Mark 16:15 is part of a later addition to the Gospel of Mark. According to scholars, the earliest manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark ended with verse 8! The NIV states this fact clearly: "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20." [1]

When Mark fled Rome as Nero persecuted the Christians, and killed Peter, whose teaching of the Injeel is what Mark converted into a life of Jesus, eventually the Presbyter or Elder Aristion in Rome wrote a postscript for completeness. He cites Jesus giving the Great Commission to spread the Injeel. (That's the good news.)

Picking up snakes and drinking deadly poison is a reference to casting out demons, to do with spiritual warfare. Jesus earlier on in Luke refers to this: "The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." He replied, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." (Luke 10:18-20)

So compare this with Aristion's account in Mark 16:17-18. You will realise that this refers to spiritual warfare. And yet it is also a prophecy of a physical miracle which the Apostle Paul fulfilled. (See Acts 28:3-5) Paul had a viper which bit him while he was gathering fire-wood in Malta and which stuck to him. The people, knowing he was a passenger oon a recently wrecked prison ship, thought he was going to di as an evil criminal, and were amazed when he did not even swell up. Paul simply shook off the snake. (This is the basis of the foolish snake-handling sect, who miss the point of Jesus' words and the unique miracle of Paul.) Are there people who can do the things Jesus speaks of in Aristion's notes at the end of Mark's Gospel? Sure there are. I have many missionary books to do with spiritual warfare in South America where previously sceptical missionaries realised God had gifted them with the ability to cast out demons, and many miracles, including the raising of the dead in places like India, occur.

I will take time to gather the information for you so you can check this out in a later posting, I don't have immediate access tot he information right this moment. However, let's be clear. Jesus taught a story about the Rich Man and Lazarus. Here is what happened when the Rich Man, after death, was in tormentin Hell. He had a discussion with Abraham who from Paradise could communicate with him. The Rich Man said to Abraham, "Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." Abraham replied, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them." "No, father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent." He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." (Luke 16:27-31) Jesus is clear. The Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, with its many prophecies about Jesus, should be enough for you, even without going into the New Testament. Jesus also said this, "Why then do you accues me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I in the Father." (John 10:36-38)
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2012 at 12:26pm
I think, based in its tradition of revisions, the Bible is overdue for a major revision. Let us see what is taken out and what is brought in. I will reserve a copy in advance.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2012 at 11:03am
Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural.
There are those, however, still today, who are known to be healers by the 'laying on of hands', and I understand that people 'speak in tongues' in the Pentacostal churches.(It is one of the reasons a friend of my daughters left the Pentacostal church, and sought another denomination, once she was grown and on her own. She was never comfortable with the whole speaking in tongues thing.) 
Healings and miracles are said happen far more often in the less developed countries where minds are still open to belief.  I have heard of people that have seen miracles in the lesser developed countries.
I myself say that I have had miracles in my life, but I can not prove them to anyone.  One has to be open to believing.
I am undecided about the whole laying on of hands because it is in the Bible, but it is also in the Bible to have nothing to do with necromancers.  How does one determine if the healing or miracle is from God or from sorcery?


Caringheart, I don't think any Christian in any period, regardless of their faith level, could do the things described in Mark 16.  The reason is that verses 9-20 were not in the original.  They were added later.  As scholar Geza Vermes notes:

"Since the longer ending of Mark (Mark 16:9-20) is missing from the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus...its authenticity is generally rejected by scholars." (The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, p. 310)

Jesus did not utter these words.  That is why not a single Christian can live up to these high standards. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2012 at 4:55pm
Greetings Islamispeace,
 
Did you read and absorb my post at all?
There are people today who 'speak in tongues', and there are those who are able to do 'laying on of hands to heal'.  It happens in those places where people's minds are still open to belief in God rather than self.
The Apostle's did these things after Pentacost when the Holy spirit came to indwell them.
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

This was recorded in the acts of the Apostles.

Salaam,  CH


Edited by Caringheart - 28 November 2012 at 9:10pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2012 at 9:53am
Carinheart,
my wife's brother-in-law was a Pentecostal Pastor, who used to say that in their church people receive holy ghost and speak tongues. He dragged once my mother-in-law (an Evangelist Christian) visiting from Mexico to visit their church and see how great the experience is of catching the spirit. She described it as frightening as they prayed, jumped and finally rolled on the floor as if getting a seizure, mumbling she could not understand. That was it for her and would never go back again, she said. He ended up in a mental hospital. Thanks to my wife's sister, who somehow convinced the hospital, that he would be better off at home, as she want to take care of him rather to leave him there to get worse. Now he is better, dependent on heavy medication.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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