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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS Post Reply Post New Topic
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2012 at 5:16am
To continue:

What was different about the first two manuscripts than the others, --- other than the verses themselves?

The Synoptic Gospels. Matthew, which was written for the Jews, --- Mark, which was written for the Romans, --- and Luke, the medical doctor and Historian, which was written for the Greeks.

Matthew starts with Genealogies, and Prophecies being fulfilled, to prove to the Jews that Jesus was the coming Messiah, --- which only the Jews would understand.

Mark, writing to the Romans where he and Peter had been ministering for some years, --- starts his shorter Gospel with John the Baptist, --- which was the first revival of the Jews through Baptism for Repentance and forgiveness of sin.

Luke, was Greek, and the only non-Jewish author in the NT. He had to have gotten his information from Mary, the mother of Jesus, --- some of which is written as only a mother could express it.
In Luke’s intro, 1:1-4, he reveals his reason for writing in verse 3:
“It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding from the very first, to write to you an orderly account.”   

Evidence shows in the writings of the Church Fathers that Matthew first wrote “The Sayings of Jesus,” --- and then a “Gospel” in Aramaic, the common language of the people. --- Later, when they wrote their Gospels in Greek they would use the former material that had been written, as a pattern that the three of the Gospels follow. --- The Gospel Message was the same to all, even as it is to everyone today.

Have a look at how they ended:
Matthew 28:
1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
--- (They found the tomb empty, and the angel gave them instructions):
7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”
8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them.
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Mark 16 (1-8):
1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.
--- (They found the tomb empty, and the angel gave them instructions):
6 But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.
7 But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”
8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Luke 24:
1 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
--- (They found the tomb empty, and the angel gave them information):
6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee,
7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”
8 And they remembered His words.
9 Then they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.

--- Do you see the difference?


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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2012 at 3:16pm
(To continue with Mark):

You will notice that Mark’s Gospel would end on a negative note if it only went to verse 8. --- Mark 1:
7 But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”
8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

There is no mention of Mark being at the cross, or with the disciples after a certain incident that is recorded, only in his Gospel account in Mark 14:
(This is when they arrested Jesus in the garden and the disciples ‘disappeared into the night,’ because had they offered much resistance, the soldiers would have arrested them also. --- And it says this about one who lingered):
51--- Now a certain young man followed Him, having a linen cloth thrown around his naked body. And the young men (soldiers or guards) laid hold of him,
52 and he left the linen cloth and fled from them naked.
--- (It is believed that this was Mark, himself, which helps to identify him as the writer of this Book.)

There are other interesting things here. --- Why does it say, “Tell the disciples – AND PETER – “?

Remember, In the Garden, Peter, --- still the impulsive man of action, --- was the one who began to offer resistance, and cut off the ear of a servant named Malchus John 18:10.
In Luke 22:51 it says then “Jesus touched the ear and healed it.”
--- (What effect would that have had on those who came to arrest Jesus?)

Earlier Peter had said this in 22:
33 But he (Peter) said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.”
34 Then He (Jesus) said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”

54 Having arrested Him (Jesus), they led Him and brought Him into the high priest’s house. But Peter followed at a distance.
55 Now when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the courtyard and sat down together, Peter sat among them.
56 And a certain servant girl, seeing him as he sat by the fire, looked intently at him and said, “This man was also with Him.”
57 But he denied Him, saying, “Woman, I do not know Him.”
--- (He denied two more times, then this happened):
60 Immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed.
61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”
62 So Peter went out and wept bitterly.

I believe this is when Peter really repented and was converted.
--- So Peter stayed in the background till after the crucifixion and did not see Jesus again till after the resurrection. --- After Jesus rose, the angel told the women, “Go tell the disciples, -- and Peter --.” --- Mark said the women were afraid.

However, John who was there all of the time, recorded this in John 20:
2 Then she (Mary Magdalene) ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple (John), whom Jesus loved , and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb.
4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first

--- (Eventually Peter confessed his love for Jesus, and became an outstanding Apostle, in the Book of Acts, after the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.)


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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2012 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.


Well said.  I feel the same way!
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2012 at 7:41pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

You are still forgetting that Paul was able to physically fulfil this as a sign of the greater spiritual battle Jesus' comments refer to.  Since Mark 16:9-20 is not Scripture but an addendum, you have to understand that Aristion misunderstood what Jesus said, but the original speech of Jesus relating to this topic in Luke 10 is clearly spiritual.  Aristion's confusion most likely arises out of knowing there was some kind of connection between this and Paul's miracle in Malta.


Why would a supposedly "inspired" book need an "addendum"?  And why would the person adding the "addendum" "misunderstand what Jesus said..."?  Isn't the "Holy Spirit" supposed to ensure that no mistakes get into the text? 

But at least you acknowledge that Mark 16:9-20 is not authentic, which is what I have been saying all along.  We are making progress!

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

It's amusing to see Muslims reason like Atheists.  You sound like you don't really believe that Jesus performed miracles, never mind people nowadays.  I actually experienced a very strange miracle this year.  I bumped into some Christians in London and they claimed one of my legs was slightly shorter than the other.  Since nobody has ever pointed this out to me, I was rather sceptical, but when they held my legs out sure enough, one of them was.  They then prayed for me, and I was thinking, Something may come of it, something may not.  but to my surprise, I felt my leg stretch and sure enough I don't walk quite as awkwardly as I used to.  This was something I'm grateful for especially as I suffer from Psoriatic arthritis resulting in ankylosin spondilitis.


Sweetheart, no one is questioning the validity of miracles. LOL  We are questioning why not one Christian is able to fulfill the promises of miracles made in Mark 16, which as you and I both know, is actually not authentic. 

I wonder if the Christians you ran into, who prayed for you, would have been able to perform the miracles mentioned in Mark 16, or if they even believe that verses 9-20 are even authentic. 

Regarding the alleged "miracle" you experienced, obviously no one can comment because no one was around when it happened.  I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it, such as a doctor (since we are dealing with a supposed medical miracle). 

I am sorry you suffer from arthritis, but don't you think that the prayers those people you met made should have done a little more than just stretching your leg, given your condition (if that even happened or if it was just in your head)?

Also, since you obviously believe in miracles and you think Muslims questioning reports of Christian miracles is "amusing", then perhaps you can answer the question that Caringheart seems to be trying to avoid like the plague: What if you heard reports of Hindu idols miraculously drinking milk?  Would you believe these reports? 


Edited by islamispeace - 20 December 2012 at 7:43pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2012 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it...

I think it is funny to see you using this argument when it is what I have been saying to you, yet when I say it, you reject it. Shocked
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2012 at 5:35am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote from Post 1:
MARK 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"

Response: --- You will notice that Mark’s Gospel would end on a negative note if it was concluded in verse 8. --- Mark 16:
6 But he (the angel) said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.
7 But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”
8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Because Mark had access to the former writings in Aramaic, he also got his info from Peter as they worked together in Rome. --- Some have said it could have been called ‘the Gospel according to Peter.’

However, Peter was older and if in his years as a fisherman in Galilee, he would be fluent in Aramaic, the common Hebrew dialect of the people, as well as Latin, --- but perhaps not fluent in Greek. --- Mark, being younger was perhaps fluent in Greek so he could readily translate from the original ‘Gospel of Matthew’ in Aramaic.
In the Intro to Mark in the New King James Study Bible, it says:
Quote: It was his close association with Peter that lent Apostolic authority to Mark’s Gospel, since Peter was obviously Mark’s primary source of information. --- End of quote.

While Peter and Mark worked together, they maybe were not together all of the time, and perhaps not so often when Mark was doing his intensive writing. --- It is understood that Mark’s account was the first Gospel published in Greek, but Matthew and Luke were in the process and would follow the same format, within a short time.

Perhaps when Mark finished, he may have given it over to others who were anxiously waiting to copy it.
Everything written had to be copied by hand, and the originals kept.
--- If Peter had not seen it to verify the ending before it was finalized by Mark, the first manuscript would have been copied, ending --- with the resurrection in 16:6, --- the instruction in v7, --- and the statement in v8, that they told no one.

--- The power of God was revealed in the Resurrection, which Mark’s account would have ended with, written in verse 6.
---And the Resurrection from the dead WAS the Victory over death, which WAS the most important event.

The verses 9-20 are obviously added like a “Post Script” --- which includes the Great Commission and the Apostolic ministry of the Book of Acts.
This would be contributed and verified by Peter, as he was the ‘Apostolic Apostle’ who spoke on the Day of Pentecost. 'He was there when it happened,' and he was the one through whom God performed many signs and miracles.

It is all authentic, and such signs and wonders are still happening today, so we can look at the verses 17-18 next.


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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2012 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan
Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not. It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.Who do you think it applies to?


So those who, according to you, do not follow God can still perform miracles in the name of Jesus? Is that's what you are suggesting?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2012 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan
Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not. It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.Who do you think it applies to?


So those who, according to you, do not follow God can still perform miracles in the name of Jesus? Is that's what you are suggesting?
Hasan

Yes. Satan can also use supernatural phenomena.
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