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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2012 at 9:40am
Originally posted by iec786

New International Version (©1984)
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."Mark 16:18
Fantastic job copying and pasting, iec786. I can also copy and paste the hadiths again, but don't really see the point in doing that. Is there anything more you would like to add to the discussion? Thanks and God bless.
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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2012 at 9:57am
You are still forgetting that Paul was able to physically fulfil this as a sign of the greater spiritual battle Jesus' comments refer to.  Since Mark 16:9-20 is not Scripture but an addendum, you have to understand that Aristion misunderstood what Jesus said, but the original speech of Jesus relating to this topic in Luke 10 is clearly spiritual.  Aristion's confusion most likely arises out of knowing there was some kind of connection between this and Paul's miracle in Malta. 

It's amusing to see Muslims reason like Atheists.  You sound like you don't really believe that Jesus performed miracles, never mind people nowadays.  I actually experienced a very strange miracle this year.  I bumped into some Christians in London and they claimed one of my legs was slightly shorter than the other.  Since nobody has ever pointed this out to me, I was rather sceptical, but when they held my legs out sure enough, one of them was.  They then prayed for me, and I was thinking, Something may come of it, something may not.  but to my surprise, I felt my leg stretch and sure enough I don't walk quite as awkwardly as I used to.  This was something I'm grateful for especially as I suffer from Psoriatic arthritis resulting in ankylosin spondilitis. 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:11pm
If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan


Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.

I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not.

It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.

Who do you think it applies to?
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2012 at 8:34pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

On the topic of poisons, what do you think of this hadith?


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582


If you were to eat 7 dates tomorrow morning, and then later that day bite down on a cyanide capsule or two or drink a cup of bleach or gasoline or eat some rat poison, would you not be harmed?


Of course I am not advocating you do this. But what do you think would happen?


Would it fair or reasonable of me to demand of Muslims to do the above, since if I am not mistaken you are called to listen to the teachings of Muhammad and he clearly said it that poison will not harm you during that day as long as you have seven dates in the morning?

Are you a `pretend believer` because of the fact (I hope!) you are not going to eat 7 dates tomorrow morning and then a few hours later swallow a spoonful of rat poison or down a cup of bleach or insecticide? *


*again, please don`t!!!!


There is a clear difference between the promise of Mark 16 and the hadiths you mentioned above.  The latter do not say that a Muslim's faith will protect them if they willingly ingested poison or any harmful substance.  Rather, the hadiths are simply mentioning the health benefits of Ajwa dates.  This is clear from the fact that in Sahih Bukhari, the hadiths about the dates are grouped in the section pertaining to medicine.  Moreover, a hadith in Sahih Muslim explains the health benefits of dates:

"'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The 'ajwa' dates of 'Aliya' contain heating effects and these are antidote in the early morning." (Book 23, Number 5083)


Another hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud mentions the benefits of dates with regard to heart problems:

"Narrated Sa'd: I suffered from an illness. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) came to pay a visit to me. He put his hands between my nipples and I felt its coolness at my heart. He said: You are a man suffering from heart sickness. Go to al-Harith ibn Kaladah, brother of Thaqif. He is a man who gives medical treatment. He should take seven ajwah dates of Medina and grind them with their kernels, and then put them into your mouth." (Book 28, Number 3866)

From these hadiths, it is clear that dates were considered to be beneficial to human health. 

Interestingly, a recent study done on rats showed that date seeds had a protective effect against certain toxic substances.  It states:

"The results showed that date seeds significantly (P<0.05) reduced liver and serum malondialdehyde (a lipid peroxidative damage product) and serum lactate dehydrogenase and creatine kinase." [1]

Does this mean that dates can be used as an "antidote" to every known toxic substance on earth?  Not necessarily.  The hadiths certainly do not identify what type of poisons nor do they say that dates protect against every type of poisonous substance.  In fact, when talking about scorpion stings, the hadiths state that offering a prayer was used.  They probably did not have any effective treatments in those days for scorpion stings:

"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: While we were on one of our journeys, we dismounted at a place where a slave girl came and said, "The chief of this tribe has been stung by a scorpion and our men are not present; is there anybody among you who can treat him (by reciting something)?" Then one of our men went along with her though we did not think that he knew any such treatment. But he treated the chief by reciting something, and the sick man recovered whereupon he gave him thirty sheep and gave us milk to drink (as a reward). When he returned, we asked our friend, "Did you know how to treat with the recitation of something?" He said, "No, but I treated him only with the recitation of the Mother of the Book (i.e., Al-Fatiha)." We said, "Do not say anything (about it) till we reach or ask the Prophet so when we reached Medina, we mentioned that to the Prophet (in order to know whether the sheep which we had taken were lawful to take or not). The Prophet said, "How did he come to know that it (Al-Fatiha) could be used for treatment? Distribute your reward and assign for me one share thereof as well."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 61, Number 529)

Another variation of the hadith indicates that the person spit on the site of the sting along with reciting Surah al-Fatiha.  Of course, with modern medicine and such things as "anti-venom", it is not necessary to resort to these types of remedies, although prayer is still important.  People in those days used whatever they could.  In modern times, we have more options.


Edited by islamispeace - 18 December 2012 at 8:36pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2012 at 4:56am
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

On the topic of poisons, what do you think of this hadith?


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582


If you were to eat 7 dates tomorrow morning, and then later that day bite down on a cyanide capsule or two or drink a cup of bleach or gasoline or eat some rat poison, would you not be harmed?


Of course I am not advocating you do this. But what do you think would happen?


Would it fair or reasonable of me to demand of Muslims to do the above, since if I am not mistaken you are called to listen to the teachings of Muhammad and he clearly said it that poison will not harm you during that day as long as you have seven dates in the morning?

Are you a `pretend believer` because of the fact (I hope!) you are not going to eat 7 dates tomorrow morning and then a few hours later swallow a spoonful of rat poison or down a cup of bleach or insecticide? *


*again, please don`t!!!!


There is a clear difference between the promise of Mark 16 and the hadiths you mentioned above.  The latter do not say that a Muslim's faith will protect them if they willingly ingested poison or any harmful substance.  Rather, the hadiths are simply mentioning the health benefits of Ajwa dates.  This is clear from the fact that in Sahih Bukhari, the hadiths about the dates are grouped in the section pertaining to medicine.  Moreover, a hadith in Sahih Muslim explains the health benefits of dates:

"'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The 'ajwa' dates of 'Aliya' contain heating effects and these are antidote in the early morning." (Book 23, Number 5083)


Another hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud mentions the benefits of dates with regard to heart problems:

"Narrated Sa'd: I suffered from an illness. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) came to pay a visit to me. He put his hands between my nipples and I felt its coolness at my heart. He said: You are a man suffering from heart sickness. Go to al-Harith ibn Kaladah, brother of Thaqif. He is a man who gives medical treatment. He should take seven ajwah dates of Medina and grind them with their kernels, and then put them into your mouth." (Book 28, Number 3866)

From these hadiths, it is clear that dates were considered to be beneficial to human health. 

Interestingly, a recent study done on rats showed that date seeds had a protective effect against certain toxic substances.  It states:

"The results showed that date seeds significantly (P<0.05) reduced liver and serum malondialdehyde (a lipid peroxidative damage product) and serum lactate dehydrogenase and creatine kinase." [1]

Does this mean that dates can be used as an "antidote" to every known toxic substance on earth?  Not necessarily.  The hadiths certainly do not identify what type of poisons nor do they say that dates protect against every type of poisonous substance.  In fact, when talking about scorpion stings, the hadiths state that offering a prayer was used.  They probably did not have any effective treatments in those days for scorpion stings:

"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: While we were on one of our journeys, we dismounted at a place where a slave girl came and said, "The chief of this tribe has been stung by a scorpion and our men are not present; is there anybody among you who can treat him (by reciting something)?" Then one of our men went along with her though we did not think that he knew any such treatment. But he treated the chief by reciting something, and the sick man recovered whereupon he gave him thirty sheep and gave us milk to drink (as a reward). When he returned, we asked our friend, "Did you know how to treat with the recitation of something?" He said, "No, but I treated him only with the recitation of the Mother of the Book (i.e., Al-Fatiha)." We said, "Do not say anything (about it) till we reach or ask the Prophet so when we reached Medina, we mentioned that to the Prophet (in order to know whether the sheep which we had taken were lawful to take or not). The Prophet said, "How did he come to know that it (Al-Fatiha) could be used for treatment? Distribute your reward and assign for me one share thereof as well."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 61, Number 529)

Another variation of the hadith indicates that the person spit on the site of the sting along with reciting Surah al-Fatiha.  Of course, with modern medicine and such things as "anti-venom", it is not necessary to resort to these types of remedies, although prayer is still important.  People in those days used whatever they could.  In modern times, we have more options.

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace. The hadith does clearly say that eating 7 dates in the morning will protect a person from poison. The hadith does not say what types of poisons, it says "poison". Poison is defined as any substance that can cause a person harm.


poi·son  (poizn)
n.
1. A substance that causes injury, illness, or death, especially by chemical means.
2. Something destructive or fatal.
3. Chemistry & Physics A substance that inhibits another substance or a reaction: a catalyst poison.
tr.v. poi·soned, poi·son·ing, poi·sons
1. To kill or harm with poison.
2. To put poison on or into: poisoning arrows; poisoned the drink.
3.
a. To pollute: Noxious fumes poison the air. See Synonyms at contaminate.
b. To have a harmful influence on; corrupt: Jealousy poisoned their friendship.
4. Chemistry & Physics To inhibit (a substance or reaction).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poison

I understand that dates do have medicinal value, but that isn't what the hadiths I cited were saying. They say that if a person eats 7 of them, he or she will be immune to poison (or magic) for the day. Nothing more, nothing less.

You say there could be a context, meaning that the author meant they protect against only certain kinds of poisons, and back then it was all that people had medicinally speaking so it was better than doing nothing. Likewise, it was best to just pray if bitten by a scorpion, whereas now we shouldn't rely only on prayer in this type of situation but also use medicine.

Why is the possibility not feasible for you that the passage in Mark also came within a context, and applied to a certain period in time only? People in the Book of Acts did handle snakes, heal people, speak in tongues. Perhaps there are still come Christians who are able to do this today, perhaps not. But these things did already happen, so Christ's words were shown to be true.


If people are going to try to 'disprove' Mark 16 on the basis that Christians today are for the most part unable to miraculously heal or speak in tongues or handle poisonous snakes, then it is as easy to 'disprove'  Muhammad's words in numbers 663 and 664 by noticing that if a person eats 7 dates at 6:00 AM and then eats a significant dose of rat poison at 9:00 AM, he will be dead or severely harmed in the next 60 minutes, long before night comes.




Edited by TG12345 - 20 December 2012 at 3:06pm
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2012 at 5:06am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.

Salaam Alaikum MahdiTheSeeker,

Try this fun experiment. Invite someone from your mosque over for an early breakfast, and give him or her 7 dates along with the meal. Invite them over later for lunch, and mix a few spoonfuls of rat poison or potassium cyanide with their food or beverage and see what happens. If they smack their lips and say "mmmm that was good", you will have proven Muhammad right. If they fall to the ground writhing and/or bleeding from their nose and mouth and/or trying their best to vomit and/or pass out and are dead within the next 5-60 minutes (assuming you do not get medical help), I guess by your logic it will have proven Muhammad was wrong.*

If you don't do this, btw, you are not a true believer.


This 'challenge' I posted to you is as senseless and ridiculous as the one you are presenting for the Christians on this forum.



*Please do not actually do this. Your co-believer will end up dead or severely harmed, and you will end up in prison for either murder or attempted murder.


Edited by TG12345 - 19 December 2012 at 5:36am
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2012 at 7:14am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote from Post 1:
MARK 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"


Response: --- This is a question that has been asked before, --- and the other question, whether or not the last verses of Mark’s Gospel are authentic.

--- I would like to start with the Scripture. --- In studying this through before, and again now, --- I find that the verses from 16:9-20 are noted as being in all of the Bible versions, but are mentioned as not being in the first two Greek manuscripts.

In the Dake’s Annotated Bible Commentary, he says,
Quote: “Of 618 Greek Manuscripts that contain the Gospels, only 2 do not have these verses. --- Syriac is the first language in which the NT was translated in 150 AD, and it contained these verses.
Following that, they are in the Coptic and Egyptian Versions in the 3rd and 4th centuries, --- The Gothic Version, in 350, --- The Latin versions, 8000 of them now exist, copied from Jerome’s Vulgate in 382, --- and the Armenian Bible about 400 AD.” --- End of quote.

--- (The Douay Version was translated to English from the Latin Vulgate about 1600, of which I have a copy, and it doesn’t mention these verses being separate, --- which is the same as the earlier King James Version, which were translated from Greek Manuscripts and produced in 1611. There is no footnote or mention, --- so to that date the verses were considered authentic.
--- In the Amplified Bible a footnote says, [9-20,are not in the two earliest manuscripts.]
--- In the New King James Study Bible which I use, the footnote says, [These verses are lacking in the Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark have them.]

Enough history, now we can consider why they were not in the first two

Salaam, --- I would like to say,
--- I believe your testimony to be true about the lengthening of your leg. --- Wow! --- These are always amazing things to me, but not something I haven’t seen happen, or haven’t experienced myself.
(This is what gives us confidence to share our faith with others, if they will listen.)

One day I was walking in a Mall and a fellow came up and said, “I see you are limping a little, would you like me to pray for you?”
This was unusual but I said, ‘I am a Christian and believe in healing, but what is your level of faith?’ --- He told me about himself and I felt that he was genuine, so I said, ‘okay.’ --- He laid his hand on my shoulder and prayed, --- I thanked him and we went our separate ways.    
--- My slight limp was not from a physical problem of bone structure, but it was a muscle in my groin that I favored a little when I walked. (I used to call it a ‘hitch in my git-a-long.’) --- As verse 18 says, “They shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover.” --- It doesn’t say immediately, but “They will recover.”

It may have been a week or two before I noticed I was walking normally. --- I thanked the Lord for sending that one to pray for me, and I thanked God for the healing. --- You see, it doesn’t have to be spectacular, but very natural for one Christian to pray for another.

--- In our Church we had a lady who suffered from migraine headaches (If you have ever had them, you will understand). --- One day as I was talking to her when she was suffering, the Lord prompted me to touch one of the two cords on the back of her neck. --- (This was unnatural because we usually never touch a lady apart from a simple hug.) --- Almost before I realized it, I was touching the cord with the end of my fingers and said, “Is that where it hurts?” --- She acknowledged, “Yes.” --- I withdrew my hand and we went on visiting with other people.
--- We never mentioned the incident again, and no one seemed to notice, --- but in due time her headaches were gone, and I have never heard her talk about headaches since. --- We just say, “Praise the Lord.”

I will get on with the explanation of the verses next.


Placid

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