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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS Post Reply Post New Topic
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2012 at 5:02pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Geez people,
Why do you make conversation so difficult.

My answer... which I stated, conversationally, at the outset...

"I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural."


LOL Calm down, Caringheart!  Don't blow a gasket!

Your contradictions are showing again.  You see, in addition to claiming that the miraculous acts described in Mark were only performed during the times of the Apostles due to "the kind of belief it would take", you also said:

"There are people today who 'speak in tongues', and there are those who are able to do 'laying on of hands to heal'.  It happens in those places where people's minds are still open to belief in God rather than self."

Don't you realize when you are contradicting yourself? 

I asked you to prove your claim that these miracles still occur.  I am especially interested in proof of people being able to ingest poison and survive.

Your appeal to the Book of Acts does not prove anything.  It is a circular argument to appeal to the New Testament to prove the New Testament.


Edited by islamispeace - 11 December 2012 at 5:04pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2012 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Ignoring my post Islamispeace?  What Jesus says in Luke and what happened to Paul in Acts is not circular argumentation.  These provide context for Aristion's notes at the end of Mark's Gospel.  (Unfinished due to Nero's murder of Peter.)  So let's try again.  The reference to snakes and scorpions refers to Satan and his demons.  The poison therefore was spiritual.  The miracle of Paul surviving the snakebite in Malta was a pointer to the greater truth of Christians being equipped for spiritual warfare.  I'm amazed at the logic here.  Since you regard Mark 16:9-20 as a forgery (as opposed to being an epilogue written after Mark), you therefore conclude that any reference to Christians being given miraculous powers must be fake too, which is, frankly bizarre.


As I said to Caringheart, appealing to the New Testament books to prove what the New Testament books say is a circular argument.  Also, there is no proof whatsoever that any of these "miracles" ever occurred or still do occur.  If you disagree, then you need to provide indisputable evidence, not the claims of the New Testament.  If I were to provide examples of Muhammad's (pbu) miracles from the Quran and Sunnah, would you accept them?  Why then would you expect non-Christians to accept the claims of the New Testament? 

So, yes, let's try again.  Here is what Mark 16 states:

"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

You claim that the part about drinking poison is "spiritual" but that is not what the text states.  Why is the ability to "drive out demons", and "speak in tongues" and "pick up snakes with their hands" literal but "drinking poison and surviving" is "spiritual"?  It's obvious that none of the disciples were able to perform this miracle, which explains why you are trying to establish that it wasn't meant to be "literal".

Regarding the authenticity of the last half of Mark 16, the proof is in the surviving manuscripts.  It was not part of the original, which is why it was not included in the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. 

And since it is a later addition, and not an authentic saying of Jesus (pbuh), then it would be a logical conclusion that Christians would not be able to perform those miracles.  If anything is "bizarre", it is your claim that a Christians can perform these miracles and yet you can't provide any evidence beyond what it written elsewhere in the New Testament. 

By the way, are you able to perform these "miracles".  I forgot to ask Caringheart, so I might as well ask you.  Do tell.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:18pm
Greetings islamispeace,

It is not contradiction, but qualification.
There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there.  I think I also stated the fact that I believe that God has performed miracles in my life, but no way to prove that to anyone.
I believe in the acts of the Apostles as recorded.  You believe in the quran, and there are strange things reported in that text also... but you believe.  I find more believable the accounts of many witnesses, who were there with Jesus as He spoke, as told through the generations.
I think I will leave you to discussion with Placid.  You seem to do better with him. Smile

Salaam,
CH
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2012 at 6:37pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

It is not contradiction, but qualification.
There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there.  I think I also stated the fact that I believe that God has performed miracles in my life, but no way to prove that to anyone.
I believe in the acts of the Apostles as recorded.  You believe in the quran, and there are strange things reported in that text also... but you believe.  I find more believable the accounts of many witnesses, who were there with Jesus as He spoke, as told through the generations.
I think I will leave you to discussion with Placid.  You seem to do better with him. Smile

Salaam,CH


Right, it's not "contradiction" but "qualification".  Umm...what?

You said that these "miracles" still occur in some parts of the world.  But, when I asked you for proof as well as whether these so-called "miracle-workers" would be willing to ingest cyanide, you got defensive and said that you stated that these miracles occurred in the time of the "Apostles" only.  Well, that's a contradiction, dear.  Embarrassed

Anyway, you still have not provided any evidence for these so-called "miracles".  The fact that there are "reports" does not mean anything.  There are "reports" of alien abductions, Bigfoot, Chupacabra and other mysterious occurrences.  Do you believe those as well, or would you require evidence?  That's what I am asking from you.  The evidence.  I am also asking you a hypothetical questions (since I don't think anyone is st**id enough to actually do it though I may be wrong) whether the "miracle-workers" you speak of can ingest poison and survive, in line with the promise of Mark 16.  For starters, can you at least tell us if you have heard "reports" of people inspired by Mark 16 to ingest poison and survive?  Please do tell!


Edited by islamispeace - 13 December 2012 at 6:38pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2012 at 6:29pm
Greetings islamispeace (?),

You are very good at twisting people's words.  It seems to be your main occupation.  Is it deliberate, or not?  I really can't say.
"you stated that these miracles occurred in the time of the "Apostles" only. "
I never said any such thing.  You must show me where you think I said this.

This is what I said, and I am quoting for the third time now.
"I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural."

You believe the 'reports' about Muhammad don't you though?
That an angel appeared to him in a cave.
That he took a midnight ride on a flying horse.
Even though these are reports he made of himself.

All we ever have are reports.  I tend to believe those testifying of things not to do with themselves but rather to do with things witnessed.

I can not report of my own miracles.  I would not expect to be believed. But if others report of witnessing the miracle...  Why should I not believe?

You are correct, all we ever have is what we choose to believe.  We must use for ourselves our own logic and decide for ourselves what is believable to us and what is not.  This is an individual thing.  It can not make one person wrong and another correct.  It only means that neither can know a thing for certain, and so all they have is their own belief.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 14 December 2012 at 6:44pm
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,It is not contradiction, but qualification.There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there.  I think I also stated the fact that I believe that God has performed miracles in my life, but no way to prove that to anyone.I believe in the acts of the Apostles as recorded.  You believe in the quran, and there are strange things reported in that text also... but you believe.  I find more believable the accounts of many witnesses, who were there with Jesus as He spoke, as told through the generations.I think I will leave you to discussion with Placid.  You seem to do better with him. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Salaam,CH





Hi Caringheart,

Is miracles a test of your faith?
Did Jesus not give you a test?
New International Version (©1984)
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones.

If false Christs and false prophets can do that then is miracles a test of your faith???? I don't think so.


Edited by iec786 - 15 December 2012 at 12:58pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,It is not contradiction, but qualification.There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there.  I think I also stated the fact that I believe that God has performed miracles in my life, but no way to prove that to anyone.I believe in the acts of the Apostles as recorded.  You believe in the quran, and there are strange things reported in that text also... but you believe.  I find more believable the accounts of many witnesses, who were there with Jesus as He spoke, as told through the generations.I think I will leave you to discussion with Placid.  You seem to do better with him. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Salaam,CH



CAringheart,
but then how come you ignore and not believe the words Jesus spoke directly and are suppose to be his words, not Johns, Marks or anybody. Do you trust more them than you trust Jesus? Who said very clearly that God is greater than him, that he has a God to whom he is returning!!!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 15 December 2012 at 1:12pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 2:08pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

You are very good at twisting people's words.  It seems to be your main occupation.  Is it deliberate, or not?  I really can't say.
"you stated that these miracles occurred in the time of the "Apostles" only. "
I never said any such thing.  You must show me where you think I said this.

This is what I said, and I am quoting for the third time now.
"I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural."


LOL Oh, for the love of God...

Don't you see that by saying that no one today has the kind of belief it would take to perform these miracles and that the early apostles could do them, you are saying that only the apostles were able to perform them since they had the type of belief required?  What else could this mean?

Also, you frustratingly repeated the above in your 12/10 response to my repeated requests for proof that the so-called "healers" and people "speaking in tongues" you previously spoke of would survive if they ingested poison.  Don't blame me for your own contradictions and lack of clarity. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You believe the 'reports' about Muhammad don't you though?
That an angel appeared to him in a cave.
That he took a midnight ride on a flying horse.
Even though these are reports he made of himself.

All we ever have are reports.  I tend to believe those testifying of things not to do with themselves but rather to do with things witnessed.


I am not talking about ancient reports but the "reports" of people in other parts of the world where you claim these miracles still occur.  And as I said, anyone can make up a "report" that they "witnessed" something unusual.  That does not mean it is true.  Only a gullible person would believe a report without investigating the matter further.

Do you believe in the "reports" of alien abductions, Bigfoot or Chupacabra?  What about the Loch Ness monster? 


Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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