IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS

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Originally posted by honeto

Carinheart,

my wife's brother-in-law was a Pentecostal Pastor, who used to say that in their church people receive holy ghost and speak tongues. He dragged once my mother-in-law (an Evangelist Christian) visiting from Mexico to visit their church and see how great the experience is of catching the spirit. She described it as frightening as they prayed, jumped and finally rolled on the floor as if getting a seizure, mumbling she could not understand. That was it for her and would never go back again, she said. He ended up in a mental hospital. Thanks to my wife's sister, who somehow convinced the hospital, that he would be better off at home, as she want to take care of him rather to leave him there to get worse. Now he is better, dependent on heavy medication.

Hasan

Greetings Hasan,

Did you read this part of what I wrote...

(It is one of the reasons a friend of my daughters left the Pentacostal 
church, and sought another denomination, once she was grown and on her 
own. She was never comfortable with the whole speaking in tongues 
thing.)

Let me also say that this girl is one of the strongest young people belonging to God that I know.

I mean, I'm with you, the whole speaking in tongues thing... I would not know what to make of it, but it is written about in the scriptures.

Here is my concern...  Jesus also drove out demons... so how would we know if this speaking in tongues is of a demon or from God...
In the time of the Apostle's they spoke in the languages so that all the people could understand, so I understand this would be from God, but if people are speaking what can not be understood... ?

So yeah, I don't have a way to reconcile that concept in scripture either.

It was also said that Muhammad went through similar things.  How do you reconcile that?  (This is a genuine question, not an attack, as there are things in all scripture that can be hard to reconcile with.  I always say that I 'wrestle with God' to the point of dislocating a joint... as Jacob did before God gave him his blessing and the name of Israel.  And I question God as Job did, and I am humbled to accept that I do not have the answers... I do not have the mind of God.  So I simply stay away from those things that do not seem that they could come from God, or things that could easily be used as a deception of the devil.  I pray that I will be one who 'runs a good race' and that I will hear the words, 'well done good and faithful servant'.)  I hope that my post from yesterday to Islamispeace on the topic would you kill a suckling, gets to post and that you will get to read it.

Hoping that you are well this day.
Salaam,
CH

Edited by Caringheart - 29 November 2012 at 1:06pm

Author	Message
Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 29 November 2012 at 12:58pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* Carinheart, my wife's brother-in-law was a Pentecostal Pastor, who used to say that in their church people receive holy ghost and speak tongues. He dragged once my mother-in-law (an Evangelist Christian) visiting from Mexico to visit their church and see how great the experience is of catching the spirit. She described it as frightening as they prayed, jumped and finally rolled on the floor as if getting a seizure, mumbling she could not understand. That was it for her and would never go back again, she said. He ended up in a mental hospital. Thanks to my wife's sister, who somehow convinced the hospital, that he would be better off at home, as she want to take care of him rather to leave him there to get worse. Now he is better, dependent on heavy medication. Hasan Greetings Hasan, Did you read this part of what I wrote... (It is one of the reasons a friend of my daughters left the Pentacostal church, and sought another denomination, once she was grown and on her own. She was never comfortable with the whole speaking in tongues thing.) Let me also say that this girl is one of the strongest young people belonging to God that I know. I mean, I'm with you, the whole speaking in tongues thing... I would not know what to make of it, but it is written about in the scriptures. Here is my concern... Jesus also drove out demons... so how would we know if this speaking in tongues is of a demon or from God... In the time of the Apostle's they spoke in the languages so that all the people could understand, so I understand this would be from God, but if people are speaking what can not be understood... ? So yeah, I don't have a way to reconcile that concept in scripture either. It was also said that Muhammad went through similar things. How do you reconcile that? (This is a genuine question, not an attack, as there are things in all scripture that can be hard to reconcile with. I always say that I 'wrestle with God' to the point of dislocating a joint... as Jacob did before God gave him his blessing and the name of Israel. And I question God as Job did, and I am humbled to accept that I do not have the answers... I do not have the mind of God. So I simply stay away from those things that do not seem that they could come from God, or things that could easily be used as a deception of the devil. I pray that I will be one who 'runs a good race' and that I will hear the words, 'well done good and faithful servant'.) I hope that my post from yesterday to Islamispeace on the topic would you kill a suckling, gets to post and that you will get to read it. Hoping that you are well this day. Salaam, CH Edited by Caringheart - 29 November 2012 at 1:06pm
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 29 November 2012 at 6:00pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings Islamispeace, Did you read and absorb my post at all? There are people today who 'speak in tongues', and there are those who are able to do 'laying on of hands to heal'. It happens in those places where people's minds are still open to belief in God rather than self. The Apostle's did these things after Pentacost when the Holy spirit came to indwell them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. ⁵Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. ⁶When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. ⁷Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? ⁸Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? ⁹Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, ¹⁰Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome ¹¹(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” ¹²Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” This was recorded in the acts of the Apostles. Salaam, CH Did you read and absorb my post? The verses from Mark are NOT AUTHENTIC! How then can any Christian think they can perform "miracles"? The Book of Acts can make all sorts of claims, but the fact is that the earliest Gospel supposedly written (Mark) has forged verses in it talking about miraculous acts which no one can prove actually happened at the hands of any Christian. Referring to other books in the New Testament is nothing but a circular argument. The reports you refer to of the so-called "healers" and people "speaking in tongues" is the result of charlatans playing on the gullibility of people who don't know any better. You said yourself that there is no way to prove the claims of "miracles". As such, your post is pointless. Any charlatan can mumble some gibberish and gullible people will think he/she is "speaking in tongues". Let's see if these people can drink poison and still survive. Why don't you ask them to ingest cyanide or strychnine? I guarantee you that they will back down. If anyone is foolish enough to actually try it, they will be dead in minutes. This sort of foolishness is not the act of a God-fearing believer.
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Mahdi The Seeke Male Senior Member Joined: 28 July 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 253	Posted: 30 November 2012 at 2:02am
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* *Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings Islamispeace, Did you read and absorb my post at all? There are people today who 'speak in tongues', and there are those who are able to do 'laying on of hands to heal'. It happens in those places where people's minds are still open to belief in God rather than self. The Apostle's did these things after Pentacost when the Holy spirit came to indwell them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. <span id="en-NIV-26955">⁵Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26956">⁶When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26957">⁷Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?</span> <span id="en-NIV-26958">⁸Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?</span> <span id="en-NIV-26959">⁹Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,</span> <span id="en-NIV-26960">¹⁰Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome</span> <span id="en-NIV-26961">¹¹(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”</span> <span id="en-NIV-26962">¹²Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”</span> This was recorded in the acts of the Apostles. Salaam, CH Did you read and absorb my post? The verses from Mark are NOT AUTHENTIC! How then can any Christian think they can perform "miracles"? The Book of Acts can make all sorts of claims, but the fact is that the earliest Gospel supposedly written (Mark) has forged verses in it talking about miraculous acts which no one can prove actually happened at the hands of any Christian. Referring to other books in the New Testament is nothing but a circular argument. The reports you refer to of the so-called "healers" and people "speaking in tongues" is the result of charlatans playing on the gullibility of people who don't know any better. You said yourself that there is no way to prove the claims of "miracles". As such, your post is pointless. Any charlatan can mumble some gibberish and gullible people will think he/she is "speaking in tongues". Let's see if these people can drink poison and still survive. Why don't you ask them to ingest cyanide or strychnine? I guarantee you that they will back down. If anyone is foolish enough to actually try it, they will be dead in minutes. This sort of foolishness is not the act of a God-fearing believer. bravo
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 08 December 2012 at 2:16pm
	Caringheart, Have you heard of any of these "healers" ingesting cyanide or strychnine? What about the people "speaking in tongues"? Would they still be speaking after drinking poison...or would they be like anyone else who st**idly drank poison (i.e. dead)?
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 09 December 2012 at 7:09pm
	Do you believe Muhammad actually took a midnight ride on a flying horse to Jerusalem? Do you believe that Jesus spoke as an infant? If you can believe these things why can you not believe that faith will allow miracles?
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 10 December 2012 at 3:35pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* Do you believe Muhammad actually took a midnight ride on a flying horse to Jerusalem? Do you believe that Jesus spoke as an infant? If you can believe these things why can you not believe that faith will allow miracles? Another non-answer by Caringheart. I asked you a simple question. Do you think if these charlatans who claim to have "healing" powers or who "speak in tongues" were to drink poison, such as cyanide, they would still survive? Or would they gag and die like any person would. Where are these "miracles"? Can you provide any evidence of Christians being able to ingest poison and survive? Is this stuff real or is it just Christian mumbo-jumbo?
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 10 December 2012 at 4:10pm
	Geez people, Why do you make conversation so difficult. My answer... which I stated, conversationally, at the outset... "I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take. The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural."
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Salaam_Erin Male Christian Groupie Joined: 30 October 2012 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 41	Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:34am
	Ignoring my post Islamispeace? What Jesus says in Luke and what happened to Paul in Acts is not circular argumentation. These provide context for Aristion's notes at the end of Mark's Gospel. (Unfinished due to Nero's murder of Peter.) So let's try again. The reference to snakes and scorpions refers to Satan and his demons. The poison therefore was spiritual. The miracle of Paul surviving the snakebite in Malta was a pointer to the greater truth of Christians being equipped for spiritual warfare. I'm amazed at the logic here. Since you regard Mark 16:9-20 as a forgery (as opposed to being an epilogue written after Mark), you therefore conclude that any reference to Christians being given miraculous powers must be fake too, which is, frankly bizarre.
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