IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Contrasting Qur'an and Ahadith of Muhammad.

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Friendship

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Posted: 25 November 2012 at 3:55pm

Assalamu alaikum.

Wellcome back.
Please forgive me for being very brief. I briefed you how to understand a verse of the holy Qur'an especially the Madinan verses.
A.Y. Ali in his explanatory note 163 only explained the meaning of the word 'curse'. In other English texts, Abdul Ala Maududi in his explanatory note 160 explained the verse referring to its Asbab-al-nuzul- that is the reasons behind its revelation. He concludes: The Muslims are being forewarned that as leaders of the world they should propagate and spread the Guidance (Sharia of Muhammad- his way of life- his actions) which has been given to them (Muhamamd, Sahabas, their pupils and the pupils of the pupils of the Sahabas) and should not keep it back from the common people as the Jewish rabbis and scribes did. Therefore for a mujtahid -one reading the Sunna -he is bound to tell the followers of Muhammad of their mistakes, because our actions -Ibadat- must be similar to that of the holy apostle. But many of us do not like that. They believed that what their Imams say is final while their explanation was incorrect. One of the conditions given for one to make a 'fatwa' (discussions in this forum) is one must have knowledge of what previous scholars say before he can comment on a topic. But look at how we are behaving! With that threat do you expect me not to advise members of this forum to read a particular book drawing our attention to our common mistakes? Where will be my place in the hereafter?
In Arabic explanations, you can check the verse in:
1. Mawafiqat by Imam Shatibi Vols 1:95; 4:77 and 125.
2. Al-i'tisam by Imam Shatibi Vol. 1:202.
The rabbis I communicate never deny me knowledge. They give me reference. If they do not know they are not ashamed to say :I do not know. This is the teaching of the Sahabas. The Sunna is we must follow the behavior of the Sahabas. Note that despite the threat of that verse, the Sahabas often did not like to say something on the Sunna for fear of misquoting the holy apostle. Sometimes they say: Take the meaning as in the verse! But, look at me courageous to speak out, yet I am insulted!

Friendship.

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Nausheen
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Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:24pm

Originally posted by Matt Browne

When observing the dialog here, an article from Mirza B. comes to mind. She is a Muslim from India:"... We Muslims are a people who are the least self critical of all mankind. We love fooling ourselves. We teach our own history in a way that makes us look good and so effectively prevents us from learning anything useful that we can apply today. ... In almost every Muslim religious discourse worldwide, we hear innumerable stories of heroic military leadership of our illustrious predecessors in the remote past. But I ask myself, how many examples do we hear of educators who established universities? Of business leaders who built economies and industries? Of scientists who gave the world new inventions and discoveries? Of rulers who created models of administration and governance that can be emulated today? ... The first sign of a desire to change is to accept that we have a problem. And that we are its authors. The empowering thing about owning the problem is that you also then own the solution. When we export blame as we are habituated to do, we also export the solution and so the problem remains with us and continues to trouble us. We must accept that we are the cause of our internal differences and strife. If we want to build mutual understanding, nothing and nobody can change that. People can try and they will try but they will never succeed if we don't let them. The coming together of the two Germanys and of the two Vietnams are classic examples. You will be astonished to learn about a recently published book on Christian denominations, each with its own church, theological concept, literature, services and priests. The author counted a total of 33,000. Yes, I have not put too many zeros. There are actually 33,000 Christian denominations. But have you ever seen one denomination bombing another's church? Have you seen the followers of one denomination suicide bombing the followers of another denomination? Have you heard any statement from the Pope calling the Church of England infidel? Occasionally you might hear statements like my church is better than yours. Have you heard a statement from the Presbyterians or the Lutherans or anyone else calling the Catholics infidels?"Muslims who have different interpretations of Islam should treat each other with respect. Only then can they learn to treat followers of other religions with respect which is the basic for peace on Earth.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

First of all who cares what Mirza B thinks? Google the golden age of Islam what the Muslims brought to the Western civilisation.

Secondly, deviants within Islam will not be tolerated, and there are so many of these unfortunately.

I dont even know who Mirza B is. However this excerpt cannot be dismissed entirely. She has made some good points on self criticism.

Unfortunately, by asking how many of scholars, teachers, scientists, industrialists etc. Islam has given to society, if she alludes to zero, her knowledge on the subject is wanting. But from an excerpt of this size it is hard to make out what exactly she is trying to say.

Edited by Nausheen - 25 November 2012 at 6:28pm

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.

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Nausheen
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Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:31pm

Originally posted by Friendship

<font face="Courier New, Courier, mono" size="4">Assalamu alaikum.Wellcome back. Please
forgive me for being very brief. I briefed you how to understand a
verse of the holy Qur'an especially the Madinan verses.A.Y. Ali in
his explanatory note 163 only explained the meaning of the word 'curse'.
In other English texts, Abdul Ala Maududi in his explanatory note 160
explained the verse referring to its Asbab-al-nuzul- that is the reasons

Are you a follower of Abul Ala Maududi?

Just being curious.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.

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Caringheart

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Posts: 1310

Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:41pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

Greetings Nausheen, Smile

I don't think she was insinuating that there were zero but rather that, 'in Muslim religious discourse', one only hears the stories of military leaders rather than the accomplishments of these others.

I don't know who Mirza B. is either but I agree she makes some well stated points.

Wishing you well,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 25 November 2012 at 6:46pm

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 25 November 2012 at 8:00pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

First of all who cares what Mirza B thinks? Google the golden age of Islam what the Muslims brought to the Western civilisation.

Secondly, deviants within Islam will not be tolerated, and there are so many of these unfortunately.

Thank you for so nicely illustrating Mirza's point!

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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honeto

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Posted: 26 November 2012 at 1:55pm

Friendship,
I agree with some of the things you say, but some things you say do not make sense and are in contrast to clear message of the Quran.
For example in the same reply from you that I have addressed before there is another sentence you wrote tha makes me uneasy, you wrote:
"Therefore knowing the Sunna that is how Muhammad lived in Madina with the Levi clan of the children of Israel and the neighboring believers in Najran who called themselves Christians is more important than reading the Qur'an."
I do not know where you get these ideas from beacuse I have never heard of them before. I understand it is important to know and have good relations with other, but it has to be based on some principles. And for a Muslim what can be a better source of these principles than the Quran and Hadiths with clear distinction that the Quran is the word of God and Hadith is word of man.
What you are suggesting seem absurd and a deviation from what Allah has clearly stated in the Quran that it is a guidance for mankind.
Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Friendship

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Posted: 27 November 2012 at 3:29am

Assalamu alaika Honeto.

I implore you always to remember the encounter Muhammad Rasulullah had with angel Gabriel and the Ahadith of the holy apostle of the merit of seeking knowledge. If you do not know something that is you have never read what the Sahabas said that does not mean that it is false or cannot be comprehended. This is what the 'Arabs define as understanding:

ما دل عليه الفظ من غير محل النطق

Muslims generally do not invest on Islamic education. That is the reason of their intolerance, arrogance and impoliteness. How can one know what happened in a period of 23 years if he has only one book covering that period? That one is great, for others have never spent a farthing (a cent) on Islamic books.
The Qur’an was explained by the living witness during its revelation called the Sahabas/Companions of the holy apostle. It is not expected today for one to say something about the Qur’an outside their explanation. These explanations are in the books of Tafsir and history. How many of such books do you possess? I have often given you references, but never gave me a single reference.

Let us be civilized like the Jewish Rabbis. For example when we discussed about the veil this is what the Rabbi sent me: The prohibition against removing one's beard is found in the Torah. You can learn about that here:

http://www.chabad.org/494236/

And yes, though the Torah was not formally given in the times on Avraham (that only happened at Sinai), there is a tradition he kept many parts of it beforehand... Let me know if this helps.

Yours truly,Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar.

According to the teaching of Muhammad, I am to keep silent on what they said after reading.

The problem of you and others is you seem not to have known what is Islam through reading what we received from the Sahabas. I gave you references as my source of knowledge. Ideally, you are to compare my source of knowledge with what is in your books of reference. When you referred to Yusuf Ali, I went further than you giving you the reference number. Probably you do not have Maududis translation. You have no right to disagree with me on what you have no knowledge. Please let us respect knowledge and those with it as explained by the holy apostle. If you still do not understand Qur’an 2:159, read the Tafsir, Al-Mizan by Allama Tabatba’i Vol.2 pp.254-258.

Just tell me your source of knowledge that the Sahabas and their pupils explained that the Arafat day is on the 9^th. Every hadith must be explained. Why is it there are 6 different compilers of hadith literature?

I kept on praising the efforts of the management of this forum, for it should be a forum watched by 750 million believers daily who want to be upright. We must know and act according to the Sunna. But the opposite seems to be the case. Know that it is only Allah who will reward one’s effort for I might have joined this forum to be praised, get support and fame. I am fully aware of the what Muhammad Rasulullah told Ali ibn Abi Talib: It is better for one man to believe from you preaching than to be rewarded with one hundred red camels. Remember that the majority according to the Qur’an will never believe.

Yes, the Shari'a (of Muhammad Rasulullah) was (is) established on the behavior of the Levi clan of the Children of Israel in Madina and this lasted for a period of six years. When they were moved to Khaybar, the experts on analyzing the reasons behind revelation noticed that the Shari'a on crime etc seized. Revelation then became centered on disbelief and hypocrisy in the last four years. Now analyze the revelation from that period to the last prayer of the holy apostle. You will see that.

Please from now on give me your reference.

Friendship

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Matt Browne
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Posted: 27 November 2012 at 6:30am

Nausheen, Caringheart, I don't think Mizra Baig is alluding to zero. What she probably means is "very few" over the past decades. Some of the few include Muhammad Yunus, of course. You will find her article here:

http://www.twf.org/News/Y2007/0126-Baig.html

Edited by Matt Browne - 27 November 2012 at 6:32am

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt

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Event: Contrasting Qur'an and Ahadith of Muhammad. - Event Date: 17 November 2012
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Author	Message
Friendship Senior Member Joined: 24 August 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 872	Posted: 25 November 2012 at 3:55pm
	Assalamu alaikum. Wellcome back. Please forgive me for being very brief. I briefed you how to understand a verse of the holy Qur'an especially the Madinan verses. A.Y. Ali in his explanatory note 163 only explained the meaning of the word 'curse'. In other English texts, Abdul Ala Maududi in his explanatory note 160 explained the verse referring to its Asbab-al-nuzul- that is the reasons behind its revelation. He concludes: The Muslims are being forewarned that as leaders of the world they should propagate and spread the Guidance (Sharia of Muhammad- his way of life- his actions) which has been given to them (Muhamamd, Sahabas, their pupils and the pupils of the pupils of the Sahabas) and should not keep it back from the common people as the Jewish rabbis and scribes did. Therefore for a mujtahid -one reading the Sunna -he is bound to tell the followers of Muhammad of their mistakes, because our actions -Ibadat- must be similar to that of the holy apostle. But many of us do not like that. They believed that what their Imams say is final while their explanation was incorrect. One of the conditions given for one to make a 'fatwa' (discussions in this forum) is one must have knowledge of what previous scholars say before he can comment on a topic. But look at how we are behaving! With that threat do you expect me not to advise members of this forum to read a particular book drawing our attention to our common mistakes? Where will be my place in the hereafter? In Arabic explanations, you can check the verse in: 1. Mawafiqat by Imam Shatibi Vols 1:95; 4:77 and 125. 2. Al-i'tisam by Imam Shatibi Vol. 1:202. The rabbis I communicate never deny me knowledge. They give me reference. If they do not know they are not ashamed to say :I do not know. This is the teaching of the Sahabas. The Sunna is we must follow the behavior of the Sahabas. Note that despite the threat of that verse, the Sahabas often did not like to say something on the Sunna for fear of misquoting the holy apostle. Sometimes they say: Take the meaning as in the verse! But, look at me courageous to speak out, yet I am insulted! Friendship.
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Nausheen Female Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 10 January 2001 Location: Japan Online Status: Offline Posts: 4146	Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:24pm
	*Originally posted by Matt Browne* When observing the dialog here, an article from Mirza B. comes to mind. She is a Muslim from India:"... We Muslims are a people who are the least self critical of all mankind. We love fooling ourselves. We teach our own history in a way that makes us look good and so effectively prevents us from learning anything useful that we can apply today. ... In almost every Muslim religious discourse worldwide, we hear innumerable stories of heroic military leadership of our illustrious predecessors in the remote past. But I ask myself, how many examples do we hear of educators who established universities? Of business leaders who built economies and industries? Of scientists who gave the world new inventions and discoveries? Of rulers who created models of administration and governance that can be emulated today? ... The first sign of a desire to change is to accept that we have a problem. And that we are its authors. The empowering thing about owning the problem is that you also then own the solution. When we export blame as we are habituated to do, we also export the solution and so the problem remains with us and continues to trouble us. We must accept that we are the cause of our internal differences and strife. If we want to build mutual understanding, nothing and nobody can change that. People can try and they will try but they will never succeed if we don't let them. The coming together of the two Germanys and of the two Vietnams are classic examples. You will be astonished to learn about a recently published book on Christian denominations, each with its own church, theological concept, literature, services and priests. The author counted a total of 33,000. Yes, I have not put too many zeros. There are actually 33,000 Christian denominations. But have you ever seen one denomination bombing another's church? Have you seen the followers of one denomination suicide bombing the followers of another denomination? Have you heard any statement from the Pope calling the Church of England infidel? Occasionally you might hear statements like my church is better than yours. Have you heard a statement from the Presbyterians or the Lutherans or anyone else calling the Catholics infidels?"Muslims who have different interpretations of Islam should treat each other with respect. Only then can they learn to treat followers of other religions with respect which is the basic for peace on Earth. *Originally posted by Abu Loren* First of all who cares what Mirza B thinks? Google the golden age of Islam what the Muslims brought to the Western civilisation. Secondly, deviants within Islam will not be tolerated, and there are so many of these unfortunately. I dont even know who Mirza B is. However this excerpt cannot be dismissed entirely. She has made some good points on self criticism. Unfortunately, by asking how many of scholars, teachers, scientists, industrialists etc. Islam has given to society, if she alludes to zero, her knowledge on the subject is wanting. But from an excerpt of this size it is hard to make out what exactly she is trying to say. Edited by Nausheen - 25 November 2012 at 6:28pm
	Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen Female Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 10 January 2001 Location: Japan Online Status: Offline Posts: 4146	Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:31pm
	*Originally posted by Friendship* <font face="Courier New, Courier, mono" size="4">Assalamu alaikum.Wellcome back. Please forgive me for being very brief. I briefed you how to understand a verse of the holy Qur'an especially the Madinan verses.A.Y. Ali in his explanatory note 163 only explained the meaning of the word 'curse'. In other English texts, Abdul Ala Maududi in his explanatory note 160 explained the verse referring to its Asbab-al-nuzul- that is the reasons Are you a follower of Abul Ala Maududi? Just being curious.
	Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:41pm
	*Originally posted by Nausheen* *Originally posted by Matt Browne* When observing the dialog here, an article from Mirza B. comes to mind. She is a Muslim from India:"... We Muslims are a people who are the least self critical of all mankind. We love fooling ourselves. We teach our own history in a way that makes us look good and so effectively prevents us from learning anything useful that we can apply today. ... In almost every Muslim religious discourse worldwide, we hear innumerable stories of heroic military leadership of our illustrious predecessors in the remote past. But I ask myself, how many examples do we hear of educators who established universities? Of business leaders who built economies and industries? Of scientists who gave the world new inventions and discoveries? Of rulers who created models of administration and governance that can be emulated today? ... The first sign of a desire to change is to accept that we have a problem. And that we are its authors. The empowering thing about owning the problem is that you also then own the solution. When we export blame as we are habituated to do, we also export the solution and so the problem remains with us and continues to trouble us. We must accept that we are the cause of our internal differences and strife. If we want to build mutual understanding, nothing and nobody can change that. People can try and they will try but they will never succeed if we don't let them. The coming together of the two Germanys and of the two Vietnams are classic examples. You will be astonished to learn about a recently published book on Christian denominations, each with its own church, theological concept, literature, services and priests. The author counted a total of 33,000. Yes, I have not put too many zeros. There are actually 33,000 Christian denominations. But have you ever seen one denomination bombing another's church? Have you seen the followers of one denomination suicide bombing the followers of another denomination? Have you heard any statement from the Pope calling the Church of England infidel? Occasionally you might hear statements like my church is better than yours. Have you heard a statement from the Presbyterians or the Lutherans or anyone else calling the Catholics infidels?"Muslims who have different interpretations of Islam should treat each other with respect. Only then can they learn to treat followers of other religions with respect which is the basic for peace on Earth. I dont even know who Mirza B is. However this excerpt cannot be dismissed entirely. She has made some good points on self criticism. Unfortunately, by asking how many of scholars, teachers, scientists, industrialists etc. Islam has given to society, if she alludes to zero, her knowledge on the subject is wanting. But from an excerpt of this size it is hard to make out what exactly she is trying to say. Greetings Nausheen, I don't think she was insinuating that there were zero but rather that, 'in Muslim religious discourse', one only hears the stories of military leaders rather than the accomplishments of these others. I don't know who Mirza B. is either but I agree she makes some well stated points. Wishing you well, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 25 November 2012 at 6:46pm
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Online Posts: 1400	Posted: 25 November 2012 at 8:00pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* First of all who cares what Mirza B thinks? Google the golden age of Islam what the Muslims brought to the Western civilisation. Secondly, deviants within Islam will not be tolerated, and there are so many of these unfortunately. Thank you for so nicely illustrating Mirza's point!
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 26 November 2012 at 1:55pm
	Friendship, I agree with some of the things you say, but some things you say do not make sense and are in contrast to clear message of the Quran. For example in the same reply from you that I have addressed before there is another sentence you wrote tha makes me uneasy, you wrote: "Therefore knowing the Sunna that is how Muhammad lived in Madina with the Levi clan of the children of Israel and the neighboring believers in Najran who called themselves Christians is more important than reading the Qur'an." I do not know where you get these ideas from beacuse I have never heard of them before. I understand it is important to know and have good relations with other, but it has to be based on some principles. And for a Muslim what can be a better source of these principles than the Quran and Hadiths with clear distinction that the Quran is the word of God and Hadith is word of man. What you are suggesting seem absurd and a deviation from what Allah has clearly stated in the Quran that it is a guidance for mankind. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Friendship Senior Member Joined: 24 August 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 872	Posted: 27 November 2012 at 3:29am
	Assalamu alaika Honeto. I implore you always to remember the encounter Muhammad Rasulullah had with angel Gabriel and the Ahadith of the holy apostle of the merit of seeking knowledge. If you do not know something that is you have never read what the Sahabas said that does not mean that it is false or cannot be comprehended. This is what the 'Arabs define as understanding: ما دل عليه الفظ من غير محل النطق Muslims generally do not invest on Islamic education. That is the reason of their intolerance, arrogance and impoliteness. How can one know what happened in a period of 23 years if he has only one book covering that period? That one is great, for others have never spent a farthing (a cent) on Islamic books. The Qur’an was explained by the living witness during its revelation called the Sahabas/Companions of the holy apostle. It is not expected today for one to say something about the Qur’an outside their explanation. These explanations are in the books of Tafsir and history. How many of such books do you possess? I have often given you references, but never gave me a single reference. Let us be civilized like the Jewish Rabbis. For example when we discussed about the veil this is what the Rabbi sent me: The prohibition against removing one's beard is found in the Torah. You can learn about that here: http://www.chabad.org/494236/ And yes, though the Torah was not formally given in the times on Avraham (that only happened at Sinai), there is a tradition he kept many parts of it beforehand... Let me know if this helps. Yours truly,Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar. According to the teaching of Muhammad, I am to keep silent on what they said after reading. The problem of you and others is you seem not to have known what is Islam through reading what we received from the Sahabas. I gave you references as my source of knowledge. Ideally, you are to compare my source of knowledge with what is in your books of reference. When you referred to Yusuf Ali, I went further than you giving you the reference number. Probably you do not have Maududis translation. You have no right to disagree with me on what you have no knowledge. Please let us respect knowledge and those with it as explained by the holy apostle. If you still do not understand Qur’an 2:159, read the Tafsir, Al-Mizan by Allama Tabatba’i Vol.2 pp.254-258. Just tell me your source of knowledge that the Sahabas and their pupils explained that the Arafat day is on the 9^th. Every hadith must be explained. Why is it there are 6 different compilers of hadith literature? I kept on praising the efforts of the management of this forum, for it should be a forum watched by 750 million believers daily who want to be upright. We must know and act according to the Sunna. But the opposite seems to be the case. Know that it is only Allah who will reward one’s effort for I might have joined this forum to be praised, get support and fame. I am fully aware of the what Muhammad Rasulullah told Ali ibn Abi Talib: It is better for one man to believe from you preaching than to be rewarded with one hundred red camels. Remember that the majority according to the Qur’an will never believe. Yes, the Shari'a (of Muhammad Rasulullah) was (is) established on the behavior of the Levi clan of the Children of Israel in Madina and this lasted for a period of six years. When they were moved to Khaybar, the experts on analyzing the reasons behind revelation noticed that the Shari'a on crime etc seized. Revelation then became centered on disbelief and hypocrisy in the last four years. Now analyze the revelation from that period to the last prayer of the holy apostle. You will see that. Please from now on give me your reference. Friendship
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Matt Browne Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 19 April 2010 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 749	Posted: 27 November 2012 at 6:30am
	Nausheen, Caringheart, I don't think Mizra Baig is alluding to zero. What she probably means is "very few" over the past decades. Some of the few include Muhammad Yunus, of course. You will find her article here: http://www.twf.org/News/Y2007/0126-Baig.html Edited by Matt Browne - 27 November 2012 at 6:32am
	A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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