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Message Icon Topic: Will Israel never stop? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Blake
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Quote Blake Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Thanks for the link.  I don't have time to comment on all the points made in that article, but here are the first few:

(1) In September 2012, with the Palestinian Authority (PA) facing severe financial strain due to a shortfall in international donations and significant overspending, Israel advanced the PA 250 million shekels in tax revenues to aid the Palestinian economy. Similarly, in July 2012, Israel advanced the PA 180 million shekels to ensure that the salaries of PA employees were paid before the Muslim holiday of Ramadan.

By "advance" I presume they mean a repayable loan.  Just for comparison, Israel spends about 50 billion shekels annually on their military.

(2) Since the signing of the 1993 Oslo accord, real GDP per capita in the West Bank has increased considerably. From 1998-2011, these numbers grew from about $1,750 to about $2,000 according to the June 2012 U.S. congressional report U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians. The report also notes that Gaza experienced a considerable rise in real GDP per capita from 2002-2005 before the Hamas takeover.

That's nice, but I don't know what it has to do with Israel.

(3) In order to reduce the level of Palestinian unemployment, Israel has increased the number of permits for Palestinians to work in Israel - by 40% since February 2011.

You don't see the irony of this?  First Israel invades their territory, steals their land and establishes Jewish settlements.  They carve up the remaining Palestinian areas into tiny enclaves that cannot be economically self-sufficient.  Then they issue permits to allow the Palestinians back onto their own land as foreign workers to provide cheap labour.  And again you expect the Palestinians to be grateful for this?

(4) Despite the constant barrage of rocket attacks emanating from the Gaza Strip, Israel provides most of the electric supply for both the West Bank and Gaza. Approximately half of Gaza’s electricity is supplied directly from Israel by way of the Israel Electric Corporation (IEC). The remaining supply comes mostly from the Gaza Power Plant (GPP), which is funded not by Hamas but by the Palestinian Authority.

Awfully nice of them, considering that Israel is the main reason Gaza can't supply its own power.  Due to the blockade, the Gaza Power Plant depends on fuel smuggled in via tunnels from Egypt.  That's when it's operating at all, but until recently it was shut down completely due to Israeli air strikes.

 

 



I agree with you that the Israelis continuing to settle in the West bank is not a good thing. And the past settlements were not really a good thing....  for the points you have already made.
  But I still really feel that Israel made a step forward by removing settlements from Gaza and had that been met with some kind of thanks instead of rockets fired, much more progress could have been made by now. For instance there wouldnt be any reason to have a blockade and economic growth would be much better in that region.

But as to the Land being stolen, that was captured in a war....  that the Palestinians were at least equally responsible for along with the other Arabs who wanted to wipe out Israel.

Having said that, I think it probably be best if Israel did eventually pull out their other settlements for the benefit of everyone in the long run. But as I was thinking before... it's very hard to think about these negotiations well someone is firing missiles at you.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 3:46pm

Originally posted by Blake

But I still really feel that Israel made a step forward by removing settlements from Gaza and had that been met with some kind of thanks instead of rockets fired, much more progress could have been made by now. For instance there wouldnt be any reason to have a blockade and economic growth would be much better in that region.

I agree.  Plenty of blame to go around.

But as to the Land being stolen, that was captured in a war....  that the Palestinians were at least equally responsible for along with the other Arabs who wanted to wipe out Israel.

As far as I'm concerned, the guy who throws the first punch is the one who started the fight.  "I didn't like the way he was lookin' at me" is not an excuse IMHO.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by Shaik Speare

But the Israeli government is phobic of accepting a Palestinian state as indicated by an internal report by D.J. Schneeweiss of Israel's foreign ministry and another document proposing to topple Mahmoud Abbas if Palestine's bid for UN non-member status is approved. And why did Israel assassinate Ahmed Jabari who according to Israeli negotiator Gershon Baskin was carrying the draft of a long term ceasefire proposal when he was killed? And talk of the impossibility of living in Israel (lol), when they give the Palestinians much worse.


Shaik Speare,

About being phobic... at this point... Wouldn't you be?  Wouldn't you want your country to err on the side of caution after all that has transpired if it were you sitting in the other ones shoes?

I don't know about the rest, but if you are correct about a draft having been made for a long term ceasefire when Jabari was killed, then there is indeed a problem.

and, I don't know that the offense is any worse than what Palestine is launching at Israel.  I do not know the particulars of the weapons being used.  To me a bomb is a bomb, all with devastating consequences.  More deaths does not necessarily mean worse attacks.  It can mean less defense... less place or time to get to safety, more dense population.  I don't say this in a callous way.  Any death is bad.  I just don't know that we can say that Israel is necessarily hitting back any harder than what they put up with.

Salaam,
CH
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb


 Why should they have to put up with blockades and occupation by a hostile foreign power?

Hi Ron,

First I don't know that I agree that Israel is hostile.  But second,
Again... What would you want, or expect, your country to do if you were being threatened?
An ipod is not a necessity of life.
People seem to have lost the entire concept of needs... needs are food, shelter, and clothing.  Those things can certainly be worked on, if they would cease to be so focused on fighting and more focused on building.  Gaza could build itself a community where it supplied its own needs... if it had proper guidance to do so.  All through history people have survived on the land in which they found themselves with no outside help from anyone.
If I am correct the Gaza strip has long been fought over as far back as the Philistines.  The people there survived as fisherman.  I am convinced that Gaza does have the means to provide for itself if it would give up doing battle.

Re: "The first two wars" ... this is referring to the war of 1948 and 1956... the Arab-Israeli conflicts
The Six-Day War — the third major Arab-Israeli conflict — was in a sense a continuation of the first two wars. Broadly speaking, the causes of the fighting in 1967 overlapped with the causes of fighting in 1948 (Arab rejection of Israel) and 1956 (continued rejectionism and an Egyptian blockade of shipping to Israel).
WWI and WWII which were western wars of aggression, have been put to an end.  These were the wars I was referring to.  Those and the war of independence of the United States from England, and the Mexican/American war, and the United States civil war.  I was referring to the fact that sensible, rightly guided, people know when it is time to bring war to an end.

Don't you think that gives them a right to defend themselves? 


If that would work.  As I have noted, other nations in the past have known when it was time to submit so that they could move forward.  No one wants to live under 'occupation' but there comes a time to cease calling it an occupation and accept defeat and learn to live under the new rule.  How do you think the Ottoman empire was established?


And I love your plan if it would work. That approach worked with Germany after WWII when the world realized its mistake of not helping Germany to recover after WWI.  It does not work with Muslims.  They are offended by any assistance coming from what they see to be the infidel.  They would rather die.  So just as Blake says... there would be no appreciation, no building of good will, only more resentment.  As I keep saying, this is the product of an evil ideology.  One that promotes dissention among people rather than peace and love.  It is the ideology that has to change... to be gotten rid of.

I don't say that Palestinians don't have legitimate grievances, but I do say that the power to change things is in their hands.

Peace,
CH



Edited by Caringheart - 24 November 2012 at 4:05pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:10pm
Thank you Blake for the link and providing people with a proper perspective.
An informed portion of the populace is able to see the irrational continuance of the Arab world in blaming its problems on the existence of Israel simply because the people, and nation, of Israel knows how to succeed.
I highly recommend this link(and others) as well,
http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48891337.html?s=raw
(warning:  some parts are likely to be offensive to the muslim senses, as they were even to mine, but this is the other side of the coin, and to have peace we must come to understand one another and how things look from the other side)
Many very informative articles there.  Two sides of a coin...
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

As far as I'm concerned, the guy who throws the first punch is the one who started the fight.  "I didn't like the way he was lookin' at me" is not an excuse IMHO.


Typically I would agree, but you do realize that if Israel were to sit by while forces continued to build on all sides, making no secret of their mission, it would not stand a chance of defending itself.

I wouldn't want my country to leave me sitting in that position either.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:18pm
Just came across this quote while reading:

"If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be peace tomorrow. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel."

It is sadly, but of a truth.

More recommended reading;
http://www.aish.com/jw/me/An_Open_Letter_to_Alice_Walker.html

If ye seek after truth.

Dr. Hamid: "If you have Russia or China becoming strong, at least they care for the absolute value of life. You can put your issues on the table and say: “Neither of us wants to be destroyed. So let’s find a way to live in peace.” But

with Iranian radicals, the rules are different. They desire your destruction, and are undeterred by self-destruction. "
Isn't this the very definition of evil?
Dr. Hamid: I will never forget when the Israeli Air Force was above Cairo in 1967 in a war initiated by the Arabs. The Israelis could have destroyed all of Cairo but they did not. I know very well that if the opposite had happened and the Egyptian Air Force was above Tel Aviv, they would not have hesitated for even a moment to destroy the entire city.
http://www.aish.com/jw/me/My_Life_as_an_Egyptian_Muslim_Radical.html


Edited by Caringheart - 24 November 2012 at 4:49pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:33pm
Caringheart,
you wrote: "First I don't know that I agree that Israel is hostile."
That is the most arrogant political statement I have heard from you.
You need to spend a little bit time in reading the history going back to at least 1930 and inform yourself of some harsh truth of this matter. I am ashamed as an American that my tax Dollars go unconditionally to Israel to commit murder, atrocities, intimidation, apartheid and so on and to cover up those crimes.
You know it is important that we also be fair not just well informed. Only with those two we will have something good coming out of our mouth.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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