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Message Icon Topic: Will Israel never stop? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 23 November 2012 at 4:51pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Others have done it... have had to do it.  How do you think America was settled?  How about Australia?

Those were pre-industrial societies.  You can't whittle an iPod out of a block of wood.  Also, you can't compare settling an entire continent with a rich diversity of resources to a relatively tiny patch of semi-desert.

And anyway, who cares?  The Palestinians, like all peoples, have an inherent right to autonomy.  Why should they have to put up with blockades and occupation by a hostile foreign power?

If that were true none of the previous wars would have ever ended.  Wars end when one recognizes that it is overpowered by the other and either desists in their aggression or is made to desist.

But don't you see? -- the previous wars didn't end.  They just took intermissions to bury their dead and re-arm.  This fight has been going on for decades, or centuries depending on how you count it.  Don't you remember the Web site you quoted earlier? "The Six-Day War the third major Arab-Israeli conflict was in a sense a continuation of the first two wars."  Of course it was.  And every other clash has been a continuation of that.

and the other part of it... Israel is not attacking, it is defending itself.  I have not seen Israel go on the attack, only seek to defend itself from attack.

Just as the Palestinians are defending themselves.  Let me remind you: they are living under a foreign occupation.  Don't you think that gives them a right to defend themselves?  That doesn't mean I approve of their tactics, let alone the strategic wisdom of bombing civilians etc., but let's not pretend that the Palestinians don't have legitimate grievances.

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 23 November 2012 at 5:00pm

Originally posted by Blake

I guarantee if Syria was firing rockets into Turkey every day for 8 months or so ... they would do something about it. Any other country in the world would.

And I guarantee you that if Syria was under occupation by Turkey, and blockaded from getting even basic essential goods, they would do something about it.

And if both conditions existed simultaneously, then we would have another unending conflict, until one side or the other, or better still both, had the wisdom to break the vicious circle.

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 23 November 2012 at 5:26pm

Originally posted by Blake

What if you were the Israeli leadership?  And you had the Responsibility of protecting your citizens. The Arabs who were surrounding you... who you just had a war with.. shared the philosophy of Adolph Hitler regarding your existence.

I would launch the most massive, dramatic and comprehensive rebuilding and humanitarian aid program ever seen on this planet, designed to catapult the Palestinians out of poverty and restore their dignity and autonomy.  I would make it so generous that only a fool (or a hopeless ideologue) would consider bombing their benefactors.  (And even at that, it would probably be a fraction of what they are spending on the military now.)

I would couple that with a cooperative approach to policing and/or monitoring the activities of extremists and militants, who no doubt will be doing all they can to provoke a resumption of mutual hostilities.  After all, if the fighting stops, they're out of business.

Would it work?  Sure.  Will it ever happen? Of course not.  Because the dirty little secret of the Middle East is that neither side really wants this conflict to end.  To a large extent, they are defined by their mutual hatred.  They would rather suffer the consequences of an unending war than to see their enemy prosper.

The thing is, Israelis are not trying to eliminate the Palestinians..... but there are many Arabs throughout the region who want to eliminate The Jews completely.

I'm not so sure about that.  If they thought for a moment that the world would let them get away with it, I bet the Israelis would happily bomb the Palestinians into oblivion once and for all.

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Quote Blake Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 12:16am
Originally posted by Shaik Speare

Originally posted by Blake

The Muslims in the region have to realize if Israel did not exist.....   women and children would still be suffering. It's the most conveinient thing to focus internal anger upon. They will just move on to the next thing.
Your concern for Muslim women and children is very touching. Israel must exist, if not as the Jewish homeland, atleast to protect the poor Mooslim women and children. It's acceptable if thousands of women and children are killed in the process; it's for the greater good.
Originally posted by Blake

There was a time when Jews lived through out North africa and the Arab Peninsula.. in countries like Yemen for example.  They were driven out and off their land. Who took their land??
Who??


Who.... Well as i nderstand it, it was 1947 after United nations partitioning resolution that all over the middle east in countries like Egypt Algeria Iraq etc.. Jews were imprisoned, their accounts frozen businesses confiscated,
they were denied the rights to make a living in society and forced out one way or another.

Is this wrong?

And your sarcasm is well taken as well... but that's ok, I don't really care. I am sorry people are dying. But what I said is true, the peoples of the middle east have been doing just fine hurting each other without the Jews to blame.
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Quote Blake Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 12:23am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

I thought I had agreed with this one point before....    Yeah your right, the strikes will hurt Israel in relations with world opinion and negotiations ( in my opinion). At the same time ... I can understand why they are doing what they are doing.....

So can I.  I can also understand why the Palestinians are doing what they are doing.  But it's still wrong, both morally and pragmatically.

... but I can't REALLY understand because I'm not in their shoes..... or the shoes of the palestinians for that matter because there is a definate line between the average person there and HAmmas who have hijacked the country.

Hijacked?  They won in a fair election, didn't they?  Do you really think that they don't represent the majority of Palestinians?



So you think the majority of Palestinians in Gaza want to be firing rockets into Israel? Rockets that are fired in close proximity to their homes making them targets??

I highly doubt that....  that's Hammas using those people for human shields. I call that highjacking.
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Quote Blake Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 12:42am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

What if you were the Israeli leadership?  And you had the Responsibility of protecting your citizens. The Arabs who were surrounding you... who you just had a war with.. shared the philosophy of Adolph Hitler regarding your existence.

I would launch the most massive, dramatic and comprehensive rebuilding and humanitarian aid program ever seen on this planet, designed to catapult the Palestinians out of poverty and restore their dignity and autonomy.  I would make it so generous that only a fool (or a hopeless ideologue) would consider bombing their benefactors.  (And even at that, it would probably be a fraction of what they are spending on the military now.)

I would couple that with a cooperative approach to policing and/or monitoring the activities of extremists and militants, who no doubt will be doing all they can to provoke a resumption of mutual hostilities.  After all, if the fighting stops, they're out of business.

Would it work?  Sure.  Will it ever happen? Of course not.  Because the dirty little secret of the Middle East is that neither side really wants this conflict to end.  To a large extent, they are defined by their mutual hatred.  They would rather suffer the consequences of an unending war than to see their enemy prosper.

The thing is, Israelis are not trying to eliminate the Palestinians..... but there are many Arabs throughout the region who want to eliminate The Jews completely.

I'm not so sure about that.  If they thought for a moment that the world would let them get away with it, I bet the Israelis would happily bomb the Palestinians into oblivion once and for all.



Hey if that plan would work , Id be all for it as well.... but again look what happened when Israel gave back Gaza...  And I realize you don't think Palesinians should be thankful for that ( because you say it was previously theirs) but that is also part of the problem. Nobody is thankful for anything  anyone does for them with that attitude. Should Israel have done more? and more than in the link below? sure they should.... but until they see some sort of reciprocation when ever they show a sign of good will towards the Palestinians.... building trust is going to be a very hard thing to do.

http://www.aish.com/jw/me/Israels-Support-of-the-Palestinian-Economy.html



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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 8:05am

Thanks for the link.  I don't have time to comment on all the points made in that article, but here are the first few:

(1) In September 2012, with the Palestinian Authority (PA) facing severe financial strain due to a shortfall in international donations and significant overspending, Israel advanced the PA 250 million shekels in tax revenues to aid the Palestinian economy. Similarly, in July 2012, Israel advanced the PA 180 million shekels to ensure that the salaries of PA employees were paid before the Muslim holiday of Ramadan.

By "advance" I presume they mean a repayable loan.  Just for comparison, Israel spends about 50 billion shekels annually on their military.

(2) Since the signing of the 1993 Oslo accord, real GDP per capita in the West Bank has increased considerably. From 1998-2011, these numbers grew from about $1,750 to about $2,000 according to the June 2012 U.S. congressional report U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians. The report also notes that Gaza experienced a considerable rise in real GDP per capita from 2002-2005 before the Hamas takeover.

That's nice, but I don't know what it has to do with Israel.

(3) In order to reduce the level of Palestinian unemployment, Israel has increased the number of permits for Palestinians to work in Israel - by 40% since February 2011.

You don't see the irony of this?  First Israel invades their territory, steals their land and establishes Jewish settlements.  They carve up the remaining Palestinian areas into tiny enclaves that cannot be economically self-sufficient.  Then they issue permits to allow the Palestinians back onto their own land as foreign workers to provide cheap labour.  And again you expect the Palestinians to be grateful for this?

(4) Despite the constant barrage of rocket attacks emanating from the Gaza Strip, Israel provides most of the electric supply for both the West Bank and Gaza. Approximately half of Gazas electricity is supplied directly from Israel by way of the Israel Electric Corporation (IEC). The remaining supply comes mostly from the Gaza Power Plant (GPP), which is funded not by Hamas but by the Palestinian Authority.

Awfully nice of them, considering that Israel is the main reason Gaza can't supply its own power.  Due to the blockade, the Gaza Power Plant depends on fuel smuggled in via tunnels from Egypt.  That's when it's operating at all, but until recently it was shut down completely due to Israeli air strikes.

 

 

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 8:12am

Originally posted by Blake

So you think the majority of Palestinians in Gaza want to be firing rockets into Israel? Rockets that are fired in close proximity to their homes making them targets??

Yeah, I think so.  Just as I think that the majority of Israelis want to punish the Palestinians via the blockade, colonization, etc., even though they know it will result in rockets landing on their front lawns and suicide bombers on their buses.  Like I said, they would rather suffer the consequences of an unending war than to see their enemy prosper.

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