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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 7:39pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have to ask... if someone were constantly, consistently, regularly, throwing stones at your house and always breaking the windows, knocking down fences and walls... wouldn't you hit back with all the force you had to send a message to make it stop?  What recourse do you think you might take?  What would anyone do to protect themselves and their property?

You mean, if the neighbour kept smashing my property, would I go and shoot his kids?  No, I wouldn't.  Would you? Shocked

That's certainly part of the solution.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is going to help that process, or hinder it?

At what point do you have to put your foot down?  What is it that these people will understand?

Yeah really, eh?  At some point you just have to start killing people.  It's the only thing that will teach them not to kill people. Ermm

But you forgot to answer my question.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is more likely to promote peace, or prolong the war?  Why would you think that bombing Gaza will make the Palestinians less likely to retaliate, when bombing Israel it makes the Israelis more likely to retaliate?

Land for peace did not work, it was only turned into land for terror.

Like I said, the "land" you're talking about was not a gift.  It was stolen from the Palestinians and was only returned after years of UN resolutions ordering them to give it back.  You still seem to think that it was some kind of magnanimous gesture for which the Palestinians should be grateful.

How in the world can trust ever be built when one side refuses to lay down arms, stop the attacks, and work towards building their own nation... work towards peace between nations?

Yes, that is the challenge.  It's probably not reasonable to expect perfect compliance on the Palestinian side with any ceasefire. Remember that "lawless mob" I mentioned earlier, the one that looted those greenhouses?  If the authorities couldn't even stop petty crimes like that, do you really think they have perfect control over the paramilitary extremist groups within their borders?  In its current condition, lacking even basic resources and infrastructure, Gaza is constantly teetering on the edge of chaos.  It must be a nightmare to try to govern.  Rocket attacks may continue sporadically even with the best of intentions on the part of the authorities.

(Stop tilting at windmills and start building them instead)

Yeah, great suggestion.  Are you aware that until 2010 the embargo prohibited construction materials (concrete, steel, asphalt, insulation, etc.) from entering Gaza, and even now such supplies are severely restricted?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 7:59pm

Originally posted by Blake

Unfortunately there is a one way bais in news reporting and it is actually hurting the Palestinians in the end of it all.

The reality is that the situation is asymmetric: there is far more death and destruction on the Gaza side.  Do you want the media to report that reality, or would you rather have some make-believe fantasy story that suits your ideology?

True as you say, very few Israelis have died... mostly because they have an early warning system, shelters and are not as densly packed in. And on the Palestinian side they have civilians right next to Rocket batterys and headquarters. Its not that Israel is targeting civilians, but it is portrayed as so

Nobody (at least nobody credible) is saying otherwise.  That doesn't change the body counts.

But as Caring Heart says....   yeah, if someone was shooting a gun at your house every day..... and only occasionaly wounded one of your family members,
it would be very likely that you would take some action based on the psycological effect, that may even be disproportionate.

Maybe so.  But it would be morally wrong, and pragmatically counterproductive.  Let me ask again: do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza will help or hurt Israel in the long run?

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

You mean, if the neighbour kept smashing my property, would I go and shoot his kids?  No, I wouldn't.  Would you? Shocked

Yeah really, eh?  At some point you just have to start killing people.  It's the only thing that will teach them not to kill people. Ermm

Ok, points taken. Embarrassed  But what would you do to put an end to it?  In civil situations we turn to the law established by the government to be enforced.  So this is much more complicated. 

So in answer to your question... in matters of nation against nation the matter has always, always, been settled by who had the greater power.  Most know when to back down for the sake of self preservation.  Every intelligent general knows when to retreat.  This constant warring has to do with a poisonous ideology.

Why do you say the land was stolen?

I don't think it was a magnanimous gesture.  I think it was an effort at conciliation... an effort to obtain peace.  Did it obtain that peace?  What will satisfy the Palestinians... giving back the land didn't bring peace... it seems that nothing less than the extermination of Israel and dominance of Islam in the world.  Who is willing to submit to that?  We will forever be a world at war unless that ideology can be changed.

Yes, that is the challenge.  Rocket attacks may continue sporadically even with the best of intentions on the part of the authorities.

This is why I say the ideology must change.  This is why education is key.

Are you aware that until 2010 the embargo prohibited construction materials (concrete, steel, asphalt, insulation, etc.) from entering Gaza, and even now such supplies are severely restricted?


Yes, I have been paying attention to that fact.
Let me ask this... How is it that the Jews were able to enter into a desolated country and rebuild it?  Haven't other nations faced similar struggles?  How was America settled?  Were things handed to them or did they become innovators and hard workers?  These hardships are supposed to inspire people to go to work... to labor to make things better, to make the things they require, but they have to be able to turn their minds in a proper direction.  Stop focusing on the splinter and work on the plank.
Are you saying that it is impossible for the people living in Gaza to make their own materials for building... are they not able to be innovative?  I say yes they are, if they would turn their attention away from the rest of the world to solve their problems, and away from what the rest of the world has, and concentrate on what they have to build with.  Don't forget the bronze age followed the stone age.  How were the pyramids in Egypt built?  Who supplied their materials?
All that money spent on all those weapons, and all that ammunition, could be better spent in actually doing good for people instead of continuing senseless ideological battles.


Edited by Caringheart - 21 November 2012 at 8:35pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

Unfortunately there is a one way bais in news reporting and it is actually hurting the Palestinians in the end of it all.

The reality is that the situation is asymmetric: there is far more death and destruction on the Gaza side.  Do you want the media to report that reality, or would you rather have some make-believe fantasy story that suits your ideology?

[/quote]

If I may interject here... I am in agreement with Blake.
What we are saying is that the reporting on both sides must be done, not just the one side.  Israel has been under constant attack for a very extended period of time before they retaliated... but during all that time it was not at all being reported in the general media, so it makes this retaliation seem unjustified.  Why do we only hear about the attacks on Gaza and not the attacks on Israel that they live with every day?  People are being wounded regularly in Israel also.

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 22 November 2012 at 5:41pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

So in answer to your question... in matters of nation against nation the matter has always, always, been settled by who had the greater power.  Most know when to back down for the sake of self preservation.  Every intelligent general knows when to retreat.  This constant warring has to do with a poisonous ideology.

Sorry, if that was an answer to my question, I must have missed it.  My question was, do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza will help or hurt Israel in the long run? 

Why do you say the land was stolen?

Because it was taken by force during the Six Day War in 1967.

Let me ask this... How is it that the Jews were able to enter into a desolated country and rebuild it?

Because the Jews were not living under foreign occupation or subject to a blockade of basic necessities.

Are you saying that it is impossible for the people living in Gaza to make their own materials for building... are they not able to be innovative?

How do you make concrete without portland cement?  How do you make steel without iron, not to mention a huge industrial infrastructure and capital investment?

Or do you expect them to build a modern civilization out of sticks and sand?

All that money spent on all those weapons, and all that ammunition, could be better spent in actually doing good for people instead of continuing senseless ideological battles.

Good point.  You would think the Israelis would have learned by now.

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 22 November 2012 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

What we are saying is that the reporting on both sides must be done, not just the one side.  Israel has been under constant attack for a very extended period of time before they retaliated... but during all that time it was not at all being reported in the general media, so it makes this retaliation seem unjustified.  Why do we only hear about the attacks on Gaza and not the attacks on Israel that they live with every day?  People are being wounded regularly in Israel also.
 
Both sides are being reported.  Who isn't aware of the constant Palestinian attacks?  But they don't generally make the front page because frankly they just aren't such a big deal on a global scale.  It's mostly property damage, with some injuries but rarely any loss of life.  Compared to the Israeli attacks, they are really more of an irritant than a serious threat.
 
If the situation seems asymmetric, that's because it is asymmetric, not because the reporting makes it look that way.  The fact is that many more Palestinians are injured and killed by Israeli forces than vice versa.


Edited by Ron Webb - 22 November 2012 at 6:00pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 22 November 2012 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

[/QUOTE]


Wow Ron, the more I talk to you the more twisted you seem to get.  I am surprised, as I am usually pretty much in agreement with you.
But, how did any civilization begin?  How did any civilization build itself?  Bricks are made of sand and straw, or mud and clay.  People have been living in the land of Palestine a very long time.  How have they done it in the past?

And wow, yeah, you think it is Israel that has the problem with wasting money on weapons and ammunition?  Where do you see any Israelites shooting off weapons in the street as celebration?  Israelites are intent on building not on attacking their neighbor.

I'm still trying to understand what brought about the six day war in 1967.  But war is war... there are losers in war... giving back the land taken was a gesture towards peace that did not have to be made... and yet, has it gotten Israel anything in the way of peace?  If Israel really wanted to make a land grab do you not think they have the power right now to go in and take over the whole of the land?  Why have they not done it?  I believe it is because they are willing to reach an equitable and peaceful solution among peoples.

Now as to my answer to your question... I guess there is no answer, we will have to wait and see.  I do not believe it is Israel's desire to be drawn in to doing battle.

Peace,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 22 November 2012 at 6:29pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 22 November 2012 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

they are really more of an irritant than a serious threat.
 


How would you (or anyone) like having to live with that "irritant"? 
Wouldn't you want your government to do something about it?
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