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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2012 at 3:46pm

Originally posted by Blake

But Ron, Israel mistreating Palestinians , gives license to fire missiles into Israel without retaliation?

No!  Absolutely not!  But this is not an either/or situation.  You don't have to choose a side in this.  It is logically possible to be critical of both sides.  

I would also say the Palestinians have been mistreated by the Iranians who are using them in their Proxy war. Instead they could have been helping the Palestinians acheive economic prosperity with the same efforts.... teaching them to live in peace and prosperity which is what Islam is supposed to be all about.

Indeed, and Israel could be doing the same thing.  If they really wanted to end the hostility, that's what they should do.  But I'm not holding my breath.

When I'm talking about Tel Aviv being reduced to Rubble... I'm not beingg serious,... that's the point. That's how long it would take for anyone to stop the Palestinians from sending over their rockets. Basically never I think.........

Yes, I understand that.  I just think it's important to keep reminding people of the asymmetry of this "war".  The Palestinians are not an existential threat to Israel.

So....  why is it that Israel turned over the Gaza to the Palestinians in the first place?  They WERE trying to treat them like human beings.... I think.

"Turned over"?  You mean gave back, after having invaded and captured it in 1967?  The Palestinians are supposed to be grateful for that?

I'll agree with you though that this was a missed opportunity for the Palestinians to reciprocate.  There have been so many missed opportunities, on both sides.

I think the problem is you got some Palestinians who truely want a Palestinian State and to exist in peace with Israel. Then you got the Palestinians who are aligned with Iran who want a Religious Caliphate including the ground under the Israelis AT ANY COST including their own.

That's right.  There are moderates on both sides, and they need to reach out to each other.  More importantly IMHO, they need to stand in opposition to the extremists in their own communities and resist the temptation to retaliate.  That's going to be tough, especially when the bombs keep exploding in their neighbours' yards, as they undoubtedly will for some time.

See, not much has changed since Adolf Hitler visited Jerusalem in 1938 to strenghen his Alliance with the Arabs against the Jews. The Jews were being exterminated from both ends..... is it any wonder the Israelis have the mind set they do? If they don't defend themselves they will no longer exist.

Again, this is hyperbole.  Israel's existence is not threatened by the Palestinians.  It may be threatened by other nations such as Iran, but attacking the Palestinians only increases that threat.  It does nothing to reduce it.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2012 at 8:05pm
Which offspring are in disgrace?  Those who transgress the commandments. - Sirach 10:19


They are all transgressing the commandments.  They are all in error.
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Quote Blake Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 12:10am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

But Ron, Israel mistreating Palestinians , gives license to fire missiles into Israel without retaliation?

No!  Absolutely not!  But this is not an either/or situation.  You don't have to choose a side in this.  It is logically possible to be critical of both sides.  

I would also say the Palestinians have been mistreated by the Iranians who are using them in their Proxy war. Instead they could have been helping the Palestinians acheive economic prosperity with the same efforts.... teaching them to live in peace and prosperity which is what Islam is supposed to be all about.

Indeed, and Israel could be doing the same thing.  If they really wanted to end the hostility, that's what they should do.  But I'm not holding my breath.

When I'm talking about Tel Aviv being reduced to Rubble... I'm not beingg serious,... that's the point. That's how long it would take for anyone to stop the Palestinians from sending over their rockets. Basically never I think.........

Yes, I understand that.  I just think it's important to keep reminding people of the asymmetry of this "war".  The Palestinians are not an existential threat to Israel.

So....  why is it that Israel turned over the Gaza to the Palestinians in the first place?  They WERE trying to treat them like human beings.... I think.

"Turned over"?  You mean gave back, after having invaded and captured it in 1967?  The Palestinians are supposed to be grateful for that?

I'll agree with you though that this was a missed opportunity for the Palestinians to reciprocate.  There have been so many missed opportunities, on both sides.

I think the problem is you got some Palestinians who truely want a Palestinian State and to exist in peace with Israel. Then you got the Palestinians who are aligned with Iran who want a Religious Caliphate including the ground under the Israelis AT ANY COST including their own.

That's right.  There are moderates on both sides, and they need to reach out to each other.  More importantly IMHO, they need to stand in opposition to the extremists in their own communities and resist the temptation to retaliate.  That's going to be tough, especially when the bombs keep exploding in their neighbours' yards, as they undoubtedly will for some time.

See, not much has changed since Adolf Hitler visited Jerusalem in 1938 to strenghen his Alliance with the Arabs against the Jews. The Jews were being exterminated from both ends..... is it any wonder the Israelis have the mind set they do? If they don't defend themselves they will no longer exist.

Again, this is hyperbole.  Israel's existence is not threatened by the Palestinians.  It may be threatened by other nations such as Iran, but attacking the Palestinians only increases that threat.  It does nothing to reduce it.




It seems to me however that since before the summer when rockets were being fired into southern Israel, It barely made footnotes in the news. 

And now suddenly when Israel decides they will take no more, Anderson Cooper has his face all over the TV.  why is that? perhaps if they had made a big deal about the rockets being fired for many months.... it MAY have made a difference in international opinion. I wouldn't be supprised if there are parts of the Arab world where civilians are not even aware of rockets being fired from Gaza... or thay believe it is just a lie. It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

Now suddenly everyone is shocked that Israel has retaliated strongly. BUT, I do agree with you in that the retaliation by Israel will solve nothing.
This is true. It must take some greater action other than violence.

As for the Hyperbole, well ... you have to remember the Arabs were Allies of the Nasis in the war, and were recruited by them to kill jews in europe and hunt them down throughout North Africa as well as other parts of the Middle East. Do you think that mindset had no bearing on the Arab/ Israeli wars that followed? And even today the same mindset is there. Maybe those rockets are no big deal as many seem to dismiss them .... no real threat to the Israelis, but do remember those rockets are comming from Iran. It's only a matter of time before one of those rockets is loaded with a Nuke. Who is to say that is no threat?  its easy for us when we don't haev to live there.

And as to Jews aiding the Palestinians economically.... remember when They took over Gaza, they were given 3,000  green houses to which they could have grown vegetables or any crop ... paid for by American Jewish donors. These cost Millions of dollars.

They were stripped down and destroyed in days by the Palestinians... so I think that the thing maybe people don't realize is that the people there may be very difficult to get along with.

Maybe the real answer will have to come from Moderate Islamic nations who can somehow help the Palestinians shed the teachings of Hammas,
if that is possible.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 6:07am

Originally posted by Blake

It seems to me however that since before the summer when rockets were being fired into southern Israel, It barely made footnotes in the news. 

And now suddenly when Israel decides they will take no more, Anderson Cooper has his face all over the TV.  why is that? perhaps if they had made a big deal about the rockets being fired for many months.... it MAY have made a difference in international opinion. I wouldn't be supprised if there are parts of the Arab world where civilians are not even aware of rockets being fired from Gaza... or thay believe it is just a lie. It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

How many Israelis were killed in those rocket attacks?  Was anybody killed?  And how many Palestinians have been killed (so far) in the Israeli retaliation?  Again, you can't treat this as a symmetrical situation.

Reports of Palestinian attacks against Israel are not suppressed in the Arab world.  They are celebrated, and the perpetrators are heroes.

As for the Hyperbole, well ... you have to remember the Arabs were Allies of the Nasis in the war, and were recruited by them to kill jews in europe and hunt them down throughout North Africa as well as other parts of the Middle East.

The list of Nazi allies is long and infamous.  If England and Germany can put that ancient conflict behind them, then surely the Israelis and the Palestinians can do the same.  And by the way, I'll take your word for Muslim involvement with the Nazis, but the Wikipedia article makes almost no mention of it.  The only reference to Muslims is with respect to Iraq, which was "briefly an ally of the Axis".  I'm not sure why you would hold that against the Palestinians, except out of pure stereotyping and prejudice.

And as to Jews aiding the Palestinians economically.... remember when They took over Gaza, they were given 3,000  green houses to which they could have grown vegetables or any crop ... paid for by American Jewish donors. These cost Millions of dollars.

They were stripped down and destroyed in days by the Palestinians... so I think that the thing maybe people don't realize is that the people there may be very difficult to get along with.

That is really a low blow.  The greenhouses were looted by a lawless mob, and the Palestinian authorities were powerless to prevent it.  To turn it around and blame it on the Palestinians authorities themselves is like blaming the victim.

Maybe the real answer will have to come from Moderate Islamic nations who can somehow help the Palestinians shed the teachings of Hammas, if that is possible.

That's certainly part of the solution.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is going to help that process, or hinder it?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Blake



It seems to me however that since before the summer when rockets were being fired into southern Israel, It barely made footnotes in the news. 

And now suddenly when Israel decides they will take no more, Anderson Cooper has his face all over the TV.  why is that? perhaps if they had made a big deal about the rockets being fired for many months.... it MAY have made a difference in international opinion. I wouldn't be supprised if there are parts of the Arab world where civilians are not even aware of rockets being fired from Gaza... or thay believe it is just a lie. It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

Now suddenly everyone is shocked that Israel has retaliated strongly.

You are absolutely right Blake.



Edited by Caringheart - 21 November 2012 at 11:39am
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

How many Israelis were killed in those rocket attacks?  Was anybody killed?  And how many Palestinians have been killed (so far) in the Israeli retaliation?  Again, you can't treat this as a symmetrical situation.

Hi Ron,

I have to ask... if someone were constantly, consistently, regularly, throwing stones at your house and always breaking the windows, knocking down fences and walls... wouldn't you hit back with all the force you had to send a message to make it stop?  What recourse do you think you might take?  What would anyone do to protect themselves and their property?

That's certainly part of the solution.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is going to help that process, or hinder it?

At what point do you have to put your foot down?  What is it that these people will understand?  Land for peace did not work, it was only turned into land for terror.  How in the world can trust ever be built when one side refuses to lay down arms, stop the attacks, and work towards building their own nation... work towards peace between nations?  (Stop tilting at windmills and start building them instead)  Every time the Palestinian side agrees to a truce it is more like a trick... an attempt to lull Israel into a sense of trust, only so it can be re-attacked... and so you're always wondering, 'How long this time?'  It is up to the Palestinian leaders to stick to their agreements and establish a lasting trust... a believable trust.  This is what continues to be lacking between the two peoples.  Can they ever work towards a place of trust?  I don't see it.  There is one mind set that needs to be changed... and that is, it must be recognized, and acknowledged, that all people must have equal rights to exist.

People need to worry about the 'plank in their own eye instead of always bothering about the splinter in someone else's.'
The message that needs to get across is;
Focus on building yourself... not tearing down someone else.



Edited by Caringheart - 21 November 2012 at 11:41am
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Quote Blake Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

It seems to me however that since before the summer when rockets were being fired into southern Israel, It barely made footnotes in the news. 

And now suddenly when Israel decides they will take no more, Anderson Cooper has his face all over the TV.  why is that? perhaps if they had made a big deal about the rockets being fired for many months.... it MAY have made a difference in international opinion. I wouldn't be supprised if there are parts of the Arab world where civilians are not even aware of rockets being fired from Gaza... or thay believe it is just a lie. It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

How many Israelis were killed in those rocket attacks?  Was anybody killed?  And how many Palestinians have been killed (so far) in the Israeli retaliation?  Again, you can't treat this as a symmetrical situation.

Reports of Palestinian attacks against Israel are not suppressed in the Arab world.  They are celebrated, and the perpetrators are heroes.

As for the Hyperbole, well ... you have to remember the Arabs were Allies of the Nasis in the war, and were recruited by them to kill jews in europe and hunt them down throughout North Africa as well as other parts of the Middle East.

The list of Nazi allies is long and infamous.  If England and Germany can put that ancient conflict behind them, then surely the Israelis and the Palestinians can do the same.  And by the way, I'll take your word for Muslim involvement with the Nazis, but the Wikipedia article makes almost no mention of it.  The only reference to Muslims is with respect to Iraq, which was "briefly an ally of the Axis".  I'm not sure why you would hold that against the Palestinians, except out of pure stereotyping and prejudice.

And as to Jews aiding the Palestinians economically.... remember when They took over Gaza, they were given 3,000  green houses to which they could have grown vegetables or any crop ... paid for by American Jewish donors. These cost Millions of dollars.

They were stripped down and destroyed in days by the Palestinians... so I think that the thing maybe people don't realize is that the people there may be very difficult to get along with.

That is really a low blow.  The greenhouses were looted by a lawless mob, and the Palestinian authorities were powerless to prevent it.  To turn it around and blame it on the Palestinians authorities themselves is like blaming the victim.

Maybe the real answer will have to come from Moderate Islamic nations who can somehow help the Palestinians shed the teachings of Hammas, if that is possible.

That's certainly part of the solution.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is going to help that process, or hinder it?



The killing of the Palestinian Civilians IS a horrible thing..... and this what is  shown on TV's throughout the world.... and well it should be shown!
But my contention is that by ONLY showing this....  anger and animosity is stirred up more and more through out the middle east.
 For months when rockets were being fired into Southern Israel.... people knew that Israel would eventually respond  ......   I mean did the UN hold any special conferences about the situation??  knowing what would eventually happen?   I bet they will pay attention now,.... but its to late.
and this stuff has been going on for decades.

Unfortunately there is a one way bais in news reporting and it is actually hurting the Palestinians in the end of it all.

True as you say, very few Israelis have died... mostly because they have an early warning system, shelters and are not as densly packed in. And on the Palestinian side they have civilians right next to Rocket batterys and headquarters. Its not that Israel is targeting civilians, but it is portrayed as so


 But as Caring Heart says....   yeah, if someone was shooting a gun at your house every day..... and only occasionaly wounded one of your family members,
it would be very likely that you would take some action based on the psycological effect, that may even be disproportionate.

 as far as Israel making more concessions and giving aid to the people of Gaza.... YES, I think it would be great if they would, and I think Israel would if they thought it would make a positive difference.
 But, how can you make any such negotiation while you have rockets being fired at you every day? You can't make progress under those conditions , or would you even want to???  

I wouldnt mind the UN getting tough o Israel to make concessions to alleiviate the Living conditions of Palestinians.
But at the same time,  that can't be done if it is only to set up a new staging ground to launch rockets.





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Quote Blake Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 6:23pm
Holding against the Palestinian people  past Alliances with the Nazi regime was not what I was trying to do,   but only to point out tthat there is a mind set that still persists today that runs parrellel to the Nazi beliefs.

Hitler blamed the Jews for all of Europes problems, said they were sub - human. That somehow this small minority was making life unlivable for everyone.

There are about 18 million Jews in the whole world and around six or so living in Israel.
  There are about 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world .... and still to many of those
the Jews are still the scapegoat for everything that goes wrong in the world. And they are accused of just about everything wrong in the Muslim world... It's as though their life is completely ruined as long as Jews are around.

It's the parellel in Ideology that I find disturbing because of where it might lead to.

FYI   heres a link i found other than wikipedia on the background.

http://israelxxpalestina.blogspot.com/2010/07/arabs-were-allies-and-supporters-of.html



 
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