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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Topic: CHRISTIANS:WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS?
    Posted: 12 November 2012 at 2:55pm
I need to know if all christians have a uniform belief on this subject.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 22 November 2012 at 11:33am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Christians, who can forgive sins?
I need to know if all christians have a uniform belief on this subject.

Response: --- The natural answer is, --- “Only God can forgive sins.”
--- But Jesus came as the Messenger and Servant of God. --- And what has caused the big controversy is that, He was CALLED the Son of God,
And it is rightly said that Almighty God could not have a Son by any relationship with Mary, --- But Gabriel didn’t say that He WAS the Son of God, but that He would be CALLED the Son of God, --- And God would be CALLED His Heavenly Father.

If you bear in mind that it was the same angel Gabriel who announced the birth of John the Baptist, and Jesus in Luke 1, and in Surah 19, --- that gave the Revelations to Muhammad, in the Quran, --- then you can understand the connection. --- It says in Luke 1:
19 And the angel answered and said to him (Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist), “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”]
29 But when she saw him she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

It says about the same in Surah 19:
20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

So, --- It is not befitting (out of the ordinary, and below the Dignity of God), --- that He should beget a Son, --- but ‘Glory be to Him’ --- when He determines a matter (like sending One into the world who is CALLED His Son), --- He only says to it, “Be!” and it is. --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, throughout the NT.)

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit of God and every miracle was done through the power of the Holy Spirit, --- so if after a healing or miracle, Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven,” --- it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Him:
Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
Luke 7:48 (To a woman who repented with weeping), Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
--- So, the Holy Spirit of God, knowing the hearts of men, --- if they were repentant, forgave their sins, through Jesus.


Placid

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 25 November 2012 at 3:07pm
Cyril,
you are mixing too many things together, a common trap tactic. But I will take one of the things that has to do with the topic.
What does this verse mean to you?
"Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Christians, who can forgive sins?
I need to know if all christians have a uniform belief on this subject.

Response: --- The natural answer is, --- “Only God can forgive sins.”
--- But Jesus came as the Messenger and Servant of God. --- And what has caused the big controversy is that, He was CALLED the Son of God,
And it is rightly said that Almighty God could not have a Son by any relationship with Mary, --- But Gabriel didn’t say that He WAS the Son of God, but that He would be CALLED the Son of God, --- And God would be CALLED His Heavenly Father.

If you bear in mind that it was the same angel Gabriel who announced the birth of John the Baptist, and Jesus in Luke 1, and in Surah 19, --- that gave the Revelations to Muhammad, in the Quran, --- then you can understand the connection. --- It says in Luke 1:
19 And the angel answered and said to him (Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist), “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”]
29 But when she saw him she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

It says about the same in Surah 19:
20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

So, --- It is not befitting (out of the ordinary, and below the Dignity of God), --- that He should beget a Son, --- but ‘Glory be to Him’ --- when He determines a matter (like sending One into the world who is CALLED His Son), --- He only says to it, “Be!” and it is. --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, throughout the NT.)

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit of God and every miracle was done through the power of the Holy Spirit, --- so if after a healing or miracle, Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven,” --- it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Him:
Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
Luke 7:48 (To a woman who repented with weeping), Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
--- So, the Holy Spirit of God, knowing the hearts of men, --- if they were repentant, forgave their sins, through Jesus.


Placid



did you mistakenly list your religion as "christian" instead of 'Muslim'? if you are trying to prove Christianity correct by quoting the Quran, you are barking up the wrong tree. you can only use it if you believe it is the word of God.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2012 at 4:36am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: did you mistakenly list your religion as "christian" instead of 'Muslim'? if you are trying to prove Christianity correct by quoting the Quran, you are barking up the wrong tree. you can only use it if you believe it is the word of God.

Response: --- No, not a mistake.
When I first came on a Muslim site some years ago, I said I wanted to learn about Islam, and a Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.” --- I had a Pickthall translation so I read it through, making notes on each Surah, as well as reading the intro to each one.

I learned the history of Muhammad and I have high regard for him as well as the Quran. --- I believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God as it says in Surah 3:
3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

The Book refers to the Old and New Testaments given to Muhammad as part of the new revelations to him. --- Many Surahs were not yet revealed at this time, about the third year of the Hijrah, and the Quran was many years away from being in Book form.
--- About half of the Quran refers to the history in the OT and the Gospels, does it not?
--- Now I understand why you don’t want any background from the OT and Prophecy --- Nor do you want me to quote from the Quran, which I enjoy studying.

Since 3:7 says, “And none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”
--- It seems that since you don’t really accept Gabriel's 'confirmation’ of the former Scriptures, then you don’t believe his revelations to Muhammad, therefore, --- you don’t really believe what the Quran says.
--- I guess that is the difference, --- I believe the revelations from Gabriel to Muhammad, and compare them to the former Scriptures.

I notice in your questions (which I thought should be answered), --- that you have a keen interest in Jesus, of what He said and did, --- but without much understanding.
--- I will try to keep my answers more concise.


Placid

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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2012 at 4:48am
Hi Mahdi,

Actually, you can Identify me as a Muslim (surrendered one) if you like.

You say that Abraham was a Muslim (surrendered one), so anyone who identifies with him would be of Islam, is that not right? --- And it says in Surah 2:
130 And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
131 Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."

And Jesus was identified as the Miracle healer sent from God in verse 49, and it continues in Surah 3:
50 '(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
53 "Our Lord (God)! - we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); - then write us down among those who bear witness."
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

--- (Does that not say that those who follow Jesus will be going to heaven?
So it identifies that the Faith of Abraham, and surrender to God, identifies a Muslim, --- And in v50 Jesus said, ---“Obey Me,” --- which is the same as in the Gospel where Jesus said, “Follow Me.”
--- So, ‘obeying Jesus,’ or ‘following Jesus,’ as the disciples did, leads to the Way that is straight. --- So, in that sense, --- true believing followers of Jesus could be called Muslims, could they not?)   

And in the NT, it said this nearly 600 years before it was written in the Quran --- in Galatians 3:
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; --- but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Placid

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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 29 December 2012 at 2:47am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

Quote: did you mistakenly list your religion as "christian" instead of 'Muslim'? if you are trying to prove Christianity correct by quoting the Quran, you are barking up the wrong tree. you can only use it if you believe it is the word of God.

Response: --- No, not a mistake.
When I first came on a Muslim site some years ago, I said I wanted to learn about Islam, and a Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.” --- I had a Pickthall translation so I read it through, making notes on each Surah, as well as reading the intro to each one.

I learned the history of Muhammad and I have high regard for him as well as the Quran. --- I believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God as it says in Surah 3:
3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

The Book refers to the Old and New Testaments given to Muhammad as part of the new revelations to him. --- Many Surahs were not yet revealed at this time, about the third year of the Hijrah, and the Quran was many years away from being in Book form.
--- About half of the Quran refers to the history in the OT and the Gospels, does it not?
--- Now I understand why you don’t want any background from the OT and Prophecy --- Nor do you want me to quote from the Quran, which I enjoy studying.

Since 3:7 says, “And none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”
--- It seems that since you don’t really accept Gabriel's 'confirmation’ of the former Scriptures, then you don’t believe his revelations to Muhammad, therefore, --- you don’t really believe what the Quran says.
--- I guess that is the difference, --- I believe the revelations from Gabriel to Muhammad, and compare them to the former Scriptures.

I notice in your questions (which I thought should be answered), --- that you have a keen interest in Jesus, of what He said and did, --- but without much understanding.
--- I will try to keep my answers more concise.


Placid



I believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God as it says in Surah 3: 3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) 4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution. 7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.


So u r a muslim? again you are using the Quran as the basis of your belief. your arguments do not make any sense. you cannot believe n the Bible and Quran at the same time. choose one.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 01 January 2013 at 1:46pm
Hi Mahdi

Quote: So u r a muslim? again you are using the Quran as the basis of your belief. your arguments do not make any sense. you cannot believe n the Bible and Quran at the same time. choose one.

Response: --- Since the angel Gabriel said that the Quran confirmed the former Scriptures, in 625 AD, --- and there have been no changes to the Scriptures or the Quran since then, --- I believe what it says.

I believe also what Muhammad was taught to say and to teach in Surah 3:
84 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in surrender)."

Also these verses from Surah 4:
162 "But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee (Muhammad) and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practice regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.
163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms."


My question is? --- Are these all different people in the Quran, than the ones that are in the former Scriptures that Gabriel confirmed?


Placid

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