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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2012 at 3:29am
You are right, Abu Loren, nobody on this forum has expressed any militant views. But it's also important to distance oneself from non-militant Islamism. Yes, most forms of Islam show that it is a religion of peace. But this does not mean that the goal of all Muslims is peace. You seem to have a hard time to simply say: 'My goal is peace', perhaps with an explanation how to achieve peace. So far you also have not shown any tolerance for beliefs that differ from yours. You even seem angry with fellow Muslims whose beliefs differ from yours. You continue to depict Christians in the worst possible way and continue to use words like crusaders or infidels. Most Christians don't want to win. Most of us are not missionaries. We want Muslims to keep their faith and we do respect this faith when it respects ours. And we want peace, while all of us can choose our beliefs. That is what no compulsion in religion is all about. If you call this a soft approach, fine. I call it respecting the dignity of every human being and a commitment to fundamental human rights.




Edited by Matt Browne - 20 November 2012 at 3:31am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2012 at 4:08am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

You are right, Abu Loren, nobody on this forum has expressed any militant views. But it's also important to distance oneself from non-militant Islamism. Yes, most forms of Islam show that it is a religion of peace. But this does not mean that the goal of all Muslims is peace. You seem to have a hard time to simply say: 'My goal is peace', perhaps with an explanation how to achieve peace. So far you also have not shown any tolerance for beliefs that differ from yours. You even seem angry with fellow Muslims whose beliefs differ from yours. You continue to depict Christians in the worst possible way and continue to use words like crusaders or infidels. Most Christians don't want to win. Most of us are not missionaries. We want Muslims to keep their faith and we do respect this faith when it respects ours. And we want peace, while all of us can choose our beliefs. That is what no compulsion in religion is all about. If you call this a soft approach, fine. I call it respecting the dignity of every human being and a commitment to fundamental human rights.


 
Islam will not tolerate any deviancy nor innovation because that is how the Christians got themselves ino the mess that they are in. The Holy Qur'an is perfection and we understand it by knowing what the Prophet (Salallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam ) taught us. So far people from all faiths tried to discredit it without any real success. Muslims whose beliefs differ from the Sunnah are not real Muslims but pretenders, I am only defending Islam from people like you who attack it.
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2012 at 5:59am
I didn't attack Islam. Can you give me one example when I did?

I only have a problem with Muslims who don't want peace, who violate the 'no compulsion in religion' principle, who reject equal rights for men and women, and who violate other human rights.


A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2012 at 6:27am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

I didn't attack Islam. Can you give me one example when I did?

I only have a problem with Muslims who don't want peace, who violate the 'no compulsion in religion' principle, who reject equal rights for men and women, and who violate other human rights.


 
By saying that Muslim women do not need to wear the hijab.
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2012 at 7:13am
You consider this to be an attack on Islam? In Islam there is no compulsion in religion. So Allah gives women a choice. Muslim women who choose not to wear the hijab can still be devout followers of Islam.

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2012 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

You consider this to be an attack on Islam? In Islam there is no compulsion in religion. So Allah gives women a choice. Muslim women who choose not to wear the hijab can still be devout followers of Islam.



Had been following this discussion for sometime. Hope you will not mind few comments - though I know your response was for Abu Loren.

Christians create quite a bit of confusion when they 'think' they know a ruling correctly, while the reality is pretty far from it.

Quran is a masterpeice of rehtoric - called balaghah in arabic. There are so many, many instances where the litetral meaning is far from the rehtorical meaning of a verse.
For instance where it says, the life of this world is but play and amusement ... and your return is to your Lord.

One may conclude from this verse - we are hear for entertainment and enjoyment - however Quran is saying something much more. It is warning one about the return to the Lord - and saying volumes about one's state after the return if one took their stay in this life lightly.

In the same way, no compulsion in religion verse is not as simple as - 'we can do whatever we want'.

This does not mean the laws are there, and one is free to choose or reject them - with no future consequences. That would be a very dangerous interpretation of the no compulsion in religion phrase.

Hijab is a religious obligation for women. All sunni scholars recognize it, and those who do not are considered deviant. Since this is a religious matter, a statement like 'women do not need to cover' coming from a non-muslim appears to be an attack. Its like they are telling me what to do and not do about my religious obligations.

Matt, you have started a thread about cultural misunderstandings, I did not write anything there as nothing occurred relevant - but for the record treat this as a cultural misunderstanding if you will - telling muslims they don't need to cover, pray, abstain from alcohol etc because there is no compulsion in religion can create huge misunderstandings about how you want to treat muslims.


Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 23 November 2012 at 1:32am
Thanks for this explanation, Nausheen. Outside of my own country, I'm not telling Muslims what to do. I have read numerous books from well-educated Muslims, for example Irshad Manji, and it is their understanding that Islam gives Muslims far more choices than they realize, especially Muslim women. If a woman wants to wear a hijab, this is a choice she made. Fine. Half of the women in Turkey choose not to wear it. Labeling them as deviant is unfair, because there is no such thing as a single valid interpretation of the Quran. Why are there Sunni and Shia? Why are there Protestants and Catholics. Why are there reformed Jews and ultra-orthodox Jews? When it comes to the matter of God and religion there is no such thing as 'one truth'.

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country. The same applies to all Western countries. German laws also supersede Christian laws or laws of any other religion. That is the nature of secular countries. We can disagree with French law not allowing face veils, but we still have to follow the laws.

If someone in Germany forces a Muslim woman to wear a hijab, this person has broken German law, even if it's the husband. It's that simple. In Germany wives don't have to obey their husbands, and vice versa. Equal rights for men and women is part of our constitution. And so is freedom of expression. And freedom of religion. A Christian can become a Muslim. A Muslim can become an atheist. A Christian can become a Buddhist. A Muslim can become a Christian. That's how our society works. When Muslims take issue with that, serious problems arise. Therefore our debates here are so important.



Edited by Matt Browne - 23 November 2012 at 1:34am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 23 November 2012 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne



Thanks for this explanation, Nausheen. Outside of my own country, I'm not telling Muslims what to do.



Thank you Matt. As you explained in your post if Islamic laws are interfering with German laws, you are correct to tell muslims in your country what not to do. That much is understandable.
For muslims in general telling them what not to do would mean telling them what islamic law is ... this is where clashes begin.

What most non-muslims have difficulty understanding is that islam is not just a religion, ie a set of rules on how to worship God. Within itself, it also contains instructions (pertaining to the soul)on spirituality and instructions (pertaining to society) on constitutional laws. It is a complete system with God in its center - unlike the secular states which do have a government and a law but God has been deleted - left for individuals to interact with (Him) on a very personal level.
Since this is a working system of most countries today, we as muslims have to deal with the situation in best possible manner.
At the same time those wishing to have peaceful coexistence with muslims need to understand that worship alone is not complete Islam, a muslim needs to implement on himself/herself their religion in totality.


Originally posted by Matt Browne


I have read numerous books from well-educated Muslims, for example Irshad Manji, and it is their understanding that Islam gives Muslims far more choices than they realize, especially Muslim women. If a woman wants to wear a hijab, this is a choice she made. Fine. Half of the women in Turkey choose not to wear it. Labeling them as deviant is unfair, because there is no such thing as a single valid interpretation of the Quran.


Hijab is a personal choice just like 5 daily prayers are personal choice.
If ALL of muslims, not just half, but ALL of muslims were to choose not to observe their daily prayers they are still wrong. Their leaving the prayer will not make their choice correct because of their number.
Just like that if all of muslim women choose not to wear a hijab they are wrong.

The question of being deviant does not arise simply by someone making a choice not to follow the religion. They become deviant when, in addition to not following they also start believing and professing that a particular action is not compulsory as muslim. There is a big difference between the two. If you dont understand, I can go in further detail, so please let me know.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Why are there Sunni and Shia? Why are there Protestants and Catholics. Why are there reformed Jews and ultra-orthodox Jews? When it comes to the matter of God and religion there is no such thing as 'one truth'.


We have a narration from prophet muhammad (peace be upon him) that former nations were divided into 71 and 72 sects, while his nation will split into 73 of which only one will be on the correct guidance. We are instructed to strive for truth and that correct guidance. God is one and His truth is one.

The problem is not in being a shia or a sunni. Rather it is about fighting who is right and who is wrong. In reality one does not need to worry about the other person being right or wrong, because God will decide that for everyone in the end.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country.


I agree with you. If muslims cannot freely practice their faith in a nation, they should leave.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

That is the nature of secular countries. We can disagree with French law not allowing face veils, but we still have to follow the laws.

Absolutely. When they have made a law which goes against Islamic faith no matter how much one screams their disagreement, they are bound to obey.

At the same time the French have attacked the islamic faith by this ban. Their desire for peace with muslims is seriously under question.

In india muslims wear a hijab/veil, Sikhs wear a turban and a bracelet, the Hindu pandits wear a janayu (a string of thread across the torso), married hindu women wear sindoor(red color) on their forehead and hair and a typical string in their neck called mangal sutra. All of these are religious symbols, and each are free to observe as adherents of that faith. To have problem with any of it is saying one has problem with the faith.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

A Christian can become a Muslim. A Muslim can become an atheist. A Christian can become a Buddhist. A Muslim can become a Christian. That's how our society works. When Muslims take issue with that, serious problems arise. Therefore our debates here are so important.



Muslims make issues in the same way as non-mulsims make issues about hijab/veil etc. Indeed our debates are important.

Edited by Nausheen - 23 November 2012 at 9:47pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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