Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

General Discussion
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : General Discussion
Message Icon Topic: The invitation... Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 6 Next >>
Author Message
Abu Loren
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1076
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2012 at 8:46am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

I wonder if Muslims on Islamicity have the courage to challenge your views, Abu Loren.

If words like disbeliever are found in the Quran, does this mean you have to use them when meeting non-Muslims? If words like slave are found in the Quran, does this mean that you have to implement slavery in Muslim countries? If words like Jihad are found in the Quran, does this mean you should conquer non-Muslim countries (as was done between 632 and 1683 CE)?

Progressiveness and innovation is not forbidden in Islam. There are numerous verses in the Quran that encourage Muslims to use their brain and seek new knowledge. If progress was forbidden, people in the United Arab Emirates would ride camels and not drive cars and not use web browsers, and they would drink camel urine (as prescribed by the Hadith) and not get insulin shots. It doesn't matter what non-Muslims say, because they are all basically clueless? Yeah, well, I wonder how the clueless people found oil in the United Arab Emirates and built cars, and also replaced camel urine with insulin. I wonder who's clueless here.

 
You see it's people like you who are clueless about Islam and yet have an 'opinion'. The progress I'm talking about is not what you have described but what the Prophet (pbuh) warned all Muslims about. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go and read the Hadiths, it's all in there.
 
Btw the Prophet (pbuh) also prophecied that the believers would dwindle in the religion and they would follow the ways of the kufr, Jews and Christians. This is exactly what is happening now, everybody wants to follow the ways of the decadent West. They want sex outside of marriage, they want to drink alcohol, they want to go to night clubs and fornicate, they want to watch movies that are full of filth like sex, they want listen to music  that has foul language etc etc etc. If you call this progress, then I don't want any part of it.
IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2019
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2012 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


 The progress I'm talking about is not what you have described but what the Prophet (pbuh) warned all Muslims about. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go and read the Hadiths, it's all in there.
 
Btw the Prophet (pbuh) also prophecied that the believers would dwindle in the religion ... This is exactly what is happening now, everybody wants to follow the ways of the decadent West. They want sex outside of marriage, they want to drink alcohol, they want to go to night clubs and fornicate, they want to watch movies that are full of filth like sex, they want listen to music  that has foul language etc etc etc. If you call this progress, then I don't want any part of it.


Greetings Abu Loren,

Are you going to say that sex outside of marriage only happens, and has only happened, in western countries?  That fornication (adultery) is not a part of the east?  (From what I understand it is simply made legal in the east through 'temporary marriage'.) 
That sexual perversion did not, and does not, exist also in the east? 
That no one in the east have been drinkers of fermented spirits? 
That all these things originate only in the west?  Perhaps they are only less hidden by the west.

You must overcome this view that these things are a product of the west only.  They are a product of the temptation to sin (of the fallen nature of man) and exist in all cultures. 

You can't generalize about the 'west' any more than you want people to make generalizations about the 'east'. 

Not all of the west is happy with the state of morals and values, and they do not reflect the behavior of all.... any more than the state of morals and values is perfect in the 'east'.

If a man in the east must marry a virgin and a female is found not to be a virgin... she did not get that way by herself... if an unwed female is not a virgin then somewhere there is also a man who acted impurely. 

Pure and impure exist in all society and its time to acknowledge that fact and stop pointing fingers.  There is a saying... 'when you point a finger at someone else there are three fingers pointing back at you'.
Do you know that pornography is most highly accessed in Muslim countries?
http://www.franklincountyvapatriots.com/2012/02/04/pedophilia-and-pornography-a-way-of-life-in-some-muslim-countries/

In terms of progress we are admonished to discern...
"hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil."

Progress does bring with it greater temptations but I don't think we can attribute those who follow evil ways merely to progress, those people have always been with us.  They are the lost souls who we must pray for God's Holy Spirit to come upon to enlighten.

salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 15 November 2012 at 11:53am
IP IP Logged
Nausheen
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 10 January 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4198
Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2012 at 3:48am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Nausheen

 
Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,
 
Then what's the point educating them?
 
And what's the point in referring to them with derogatory terminology?
 
 
 
Wa Alaikkum As'alaam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Tell me where I have used derogatory terms?
 
If you haven't noticed already the majority of the non-muslims particularly the Christians are not here to educate themselves but to mock and discredit Islam and the Prophet (pbuh).
I did not say YOU used derogatory terms here. Was referring to my opening post - why shld we call the non-muslims as infidels? And why shld we address them as such if we know that we cannot educate them about islam?
 
This is my concern.
 
When we invite someone to dinner or a wedding etc, we use honorary titles, because we know its not only indecent to invite a person badly, but also that the person will be offended and reject our proposal. Then how is it so that when we want to talk about our own religion (the word of ALLAH) we address the non-muslims in such unattractive manner that they are bound to run away from us.
 
Is this an intelligent approach to engage someone in discussion or argument?
 
I think we have a duty towards our own souls and towards all muslims as a community when we talk about Islam - we cannot make it seem unattractive through our demeanors or we are doing disfavor to our own bretheren at large and to mankind in general.
 
 
 


Edited by Nausheen - 14 November 2012 at 4:19am
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
IP IP Logged
Nausheen
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 10 January 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4198
Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2012 at 4:04am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

 
The words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir can be found in the Holy Qur'an and refers to anybody who does not believe in Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala as the One True God who created the heavens and the earth.
 
Does the holy quran teach us to address the non-muslims using these terminologies.
If for example I want to make a reference about a college mate who is hindu, should I call her kafir?
'so-n-so kafir said such-n-such' Is that okay?
 
BY definition there are people who are kafirs, mushriks, munafiqs etc. But the point here is should we be using these terms to address them on their faces or in third person in a discussion?
On Islamicity we are the hosts and the non-muslims are guests.
If we address them with such honorifics we are simply being bad hosts.
 
Originally posted by Friendship

Progressiveness can be a form of innovaion which is forbidden in Islam. We muslims must keep to the principles and guidelines that we are given in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).
 
I fail to understand how a little mutual respect can be regarded as pregressive innovation in Islam. How did the prophet sallallahu alaihe wassalam address the jews and the christians? How did he address the Quraish? the pagan arabs?
Abu Lahab, Abu Jahal ... how did he address them?
Did he call all of them so-n-so kafir, mushrik, munafiq etc?
 
Note the verses in which Abu Lahb is mentioned by name the word kafir is not mentioned.
 
Quran maintains a decorum. Likewise we need to maintain a decorum.
 
Originally posted by Friendship

To be it doesn't matter what any non-muslim says, they are all basically clueless. The proof is that the most intelligent people on earth are Christians and they believe in nonsense called the Trinity. This alone proves that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala puts a veil over the eyes of the unbeliever and He guides whom He wills.
 
We are not talking about the trinity in this thread.


Edited by Nausheen - 14 November 2012 at 4:09am
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
IP IP Logged
Nausheen
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 10 January 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4198
Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2012 at 4:17am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

 
 
Btw the Prophet (pbuh) also prophecied that the believers would dwindle in the religion and they would follow the ways of the kufr, Jews and Christians. This is exactly what is happening now, everybody wants to follow the ways of the decadent West. They want sex outside of marriage, they want to drink alcohol, they want to go to night clubs and fornicate, they want to watch movies that are full of filth like sex, they want listen to music  that has foul language etc etc etc. If you call this progress, then I don't want any part of it.
Why do you say everybody? That is a very blanket statement.
Do you mean nobody in the west wants to lead a halal life? If that is so, then how come in the same west Islam is the fastest growing religion?
 
 
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1076
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2012 at 5:03am
Originally posted by Nausheen

 
I did not say YOU used derogatory terms here. Was referring to my opening post - why shld we call the non-muslims as infidels? And why shld we address them as such if we know that we cannot educate them about islam?
 
This is my concern.
 
When we invite someone to dinner or a wedding etc, we use honorary titles, because we know its not only indecent to invite a person badly, but also that the person will be offended and reject our proposal. Then how is it so that when we want to talk about our own religion (the word of ALLAH) we address the non-muslims in such unattractive manner that they are bound to run away from us.
 
Is this an intelligent approach to engage someone in discussion or argument?
 
I think we have a duty towards our own souls and towards all muslims as a community when we talk about Islam - we cannot make it seem unattractive through our demeanors or we are doing disfavor to our own bretheren at large and to mankind in general.
 
 
 
 
You are right on every point, however I am very direct and I do not like to mince with words nor beat around the bush. So sometimes in the heat of the moment I do forget myself and get carried away. Having said all the I will defend myself by saying that what I've said so far in this forum is the truth and I always back up my claims by using the Holy Qur'an and the Hadith of the Prophet (Salallahu Alaihi Wasalam).
 
I'm sorry if this has been upsetting for you and I will endeavour to be polite Insha'Allah.
 
Are you a Sufi by any chance?
IP IP Logged
Matt Browne
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2010
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 825
Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2012 at 6:05am
Yes, the Hadiths, it's all in there. This is why Muslim men and women seek to get a good general education, and not just a good religious education.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
"The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 74
"Acquire knowledge and impart it to the people." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 107
"One who treads a path in search of knowledge has his path to Paradise made easy by God." - Riyadh us-Saleheen, 245

Trying to depict Christians and Western non-Christians in the worst possible way is no better than trying to depict Muslims in the worst possible way, as if all Muslim men beat their wives, burn churches while people are praying inside, or fly fuel-laden airplanes into skyscrapers.

I don't depict Muslims in that way. Most Muslims are decent people most of the time and most Christians are decent people most of the time. But there are some differing beliefs between Muslims and Christians we should be aware of. Most Muslims assume the differences are mainly about Jesus being a prophet or the son of God. I think this assumption is wrong. To me, the main difference between Muhammad and Jesus is what the two said about how peace between large groups of people can be achieved. This is what Muslims and Christians should debate about. This is what truly matters in a globalized world of the 21st century. Good Christians are asked to love all their fellow human beings. That is the nature of our faith. We know that we are not perfect and sometimes we fail. But our failures drive us to become better human beings. We reject the sins, but not the sinners. Most people have the potential to become good and decent human beings. We Christians try hard to love all Muslims, even the Muslims who despise our faith and who despise everything about Western culture. It's easy to love a friend. It's difficult to love somebody who is hostile. But it's possible when we really try hard. We Christians don't focus on following all prescribed rituals (though they are also important). We focus on how we can learn to love and appreciate all human beings no matter how different they are. When other people give up their hatred, we forgive them. It's what the followers of Martin Luther King did, when Rosa Park's refusal to give up her bus seat made a lot of white supremacists very angry. Over the years millions gave up hatred of people with a different skin color. It's still there, but compare it to 1955. White people elect President Obama, because they think he is the best candidate. Imagine this in 1955. People can learn to give up hatred. People can learn to give up discrimination. Live and let live.

I'm trying hard not to be clueless about Islam. Are you trying hard not to be clueless about Christianity?

My wife and I have been married for 25 years. I never cheated on her. I don't go to night clubs. I don't like music with foul language in it. I don't use profanity in Internet forums. I'm trying to be polite and respectful. I drink alcohol in moderation, which is not a health risk like smoking. I don't smoke. I don't take drugs. I respect other cultures. I like to learn other languages. English is my second language and I love it. In 1986 I also learned some Arabic to find my way around Egypt.

Yes, there are drunk people out there. Yes, there are men who want to have sex with more than one woman. Yes, there are men who beat their wives. Yes, there is greed. This world is not perfect and it will never be. But we can make it a little better every day. With the exception of Yugoslavia, Europe has enjoyed peace for almost 70 years. Germans and French people hated each other. Today they are best friends. That's progress worth talking about. The same can happen with the Christian and the Muslim world in general. They can become best friends. It's one of my goals in life. We are all children of Ibrahim.

Friends don't call each other infidel or pagan or heathen. This is what Nausheen's question is all about. I think it's great she asked this question. If we can't get rid of derogatory terms, it's very difficult to appreciate diversity and celebrate differences. And if we all were the same, the world would be very boring.



Edited by Matt Browne - 14 November 2012 at 6:24am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1076
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2012 at 6:35am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Yes, the Hadiths, it's all in there. This is why Muslim men and women seek to get a good general education, and not just a good religious education.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
"The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 74
"Acquire knowledge and impart it to the people." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 107
"One who treads a path in search of knowledge has his path to Paradise made easy by God." - Riyadh us-Saleheen, 245

Trying to depict Christians and Western non-Christians in the worst possible way is no better than trying to depict Muslims in the worst possible way, as if all Muslim men beat their wives, burn churches while people are praying inside, or fly fuel-laden airplanes into skyscrapers.

I don't depict Muslims in that way. Most Muslims are decent people most of the time and most Christians are decent people most of the time. But there are some differing beliefs between Muslims and Christians we should be aware of. Most Muslims assume the differences are mainly about Jesus being a prophet or the son of God. I think this assumption is wrong. To me, the main difference between Muhammad and Jesus is what the two said about how peace between large groups of people can be achieved. This is what Muslims and Christians should debate about. This is what truly matters in a globalized world of the 21st century. Good Christians are asked to love all their fellow human beings. That is the nature of our faith. We know that we are not perfect and sometimes we fail. But our failures drive us to become better human beings. We reject the sins, but not the sinners. Most people have the potential to become good and decent human beings. We Christians try hard to love all Muslims, even the Muslims who despise our faith and who despise everything about Western culture. It's easy to love a friend. It's difficult to love somebody who is hostile. But it's possible when we really try hard. We Christians don't focus on following all prescribed rituals (though they are also important). We focus on how we can learn to love and appreciate all human beings no matter how different they are. When other people give up their hatred, we forgive them. It's what the followers of Martin Luther King did, when Rosa Park's refusal to give up her bus seat made a lot of white supremacists very angry. Over the years millions gave up hatred of people with a different skin color. It's still there, but compare it to 1955. White people elect President Obama, because they think he is the best candidate. Imagine this in 1955. People can learn to give up hatred. People can learn to give up discrimination. Live and let live.

I'm trying hard not to be clueless about Islam. Are you trying hard not to be clueless about Christianity?

My wife and I have been married for 25 years. I never cheated on her. I don't go to night clubs. I don't like music with foul language in it. I don't use profanity in Internet forums. I'm trying to be polite and respectful. I drink alcohol in moderation, which is not a health risk like smoking. I don't smoke. I don't take drugs. I respect other cultures. I like to learn other languages. English is my second language and I love it. In 1986 I also learned some Arabic to find my way around Egypt.

Yes, there are drunk people out there. Yes, there are men who want to have sex with more than one woman. Yes, there are men who beat their wives. Yes, there is greed. This world is not perfect and it will never be. But we can make it a little better every day. With the exception of Yugoslavia, Europe has enjoyed peace for almost 70 years. Germans and French people hated each other. Today they are best friends. That's progress worth talking about. The same can happen with the Christian and the Muslim world in general. They can become best friends. It's one of my goals in life. We are all children of Ibrahim.

Friends don't call each other infidel or pagan or heathen. This is what Nausheen's question is all about. I think it's great she asked this question. If we can't get rid of derogatory terms, it's very difficult to appreciate diversity and celebrate differences. And if we all were the same, the world would be very boring.

 
You know what? I've changed my mind I'm not going to apologise any more. Those terms are in the Holy Qur'an and I am happy to use it against people who do not believe in Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. People who are hurt by it then tough, grow up and be a man.
 
It looks like there's only 3 people defending Islam on this forum from the crusading Christians. Myself, Beebok and Mahdi the Seeker.
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 6 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com