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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: JESUS:'...SELL EVERYTHING.....' Post Reply Post New Topic
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 05 January 2013 at 11:38am
Hi Hasan,

Quote: It is true that Torah and Injeel were sent by God for their times, and as their state depleted in the hands of its holders as documented in what we now know as the Bible, the vacuum was created for a pure word of God to guide those who seek His guidance.

Response: --- The Torah that was given to Moses was preserved and the Ten Commandments are still for us today. --- The fact that the Jews, to whom the Torah was entrusted, failed to follow the commandments of God. They did not change the Scriptures, they just rejected it. --- But there was always a remnant that followed the true Word of God.

Quote: The Quran documents, just like the Bible that the words of the previous scriptures were changed, some forgotten (left out) and so on in the hands of it's care takers

Response: --- (You have to give more definite verses than you did before which mention the unbeliever’s rejection, but no evidence of changes in the Scriptures themselves) --- As I have said, if someone threw the Scripture behind them, that didn’t ‘change’ anything because someone else could pick it up and read it.
--- I have read some of the ‘Abrogated Quran,’ which I am sure is not authorized, but it removes some of the ‘pleasant’ verses and replaces them with militant ones like Surah 9:5. --- By them doing that, and misleading the readers, do you think that changes the ancient copy of the Quran in Arabic that is kept under glass in a Museum? --- I don’t think so.

Surah 9 was a one-time cleansing in year 9 of the Hijrah, when the idolaters, 1 --- had to convert to Islam (surrender to God), and honor Muhammad, 2 --- leave Mecca before the next year (year 10), or, 3 --- be in danger of being put to death because they were enemies of God, or renegades.
--- (In year 9, this ‘Year of Immunity,’ did not apply to Jews or Christians, did it? --- Or to any other period in history, did it? --- But just to the idolaters who formerly worshiped the 360 some idols that had occupied the Kabah, the House of Prayer, before Muhammad removed them in year 8.
--- Notice this verse, Surah 9:28 “O you who believe! The idolaters only are unclean.” --- But the ‘Abrogated Quran’ is suggesting that all non-Muslims are unclean, and that they follow a ‘militant Allah,’ --- and not a ‘God of Love.’

Quote: The word of God, in its pure form was sent to mankind in the form of the Quran. It is a complete guidance for those who seek guidance from their maker.

Response: --- From my perspective, I believe the revelations given to Muhammad in the Quran, because I don’t find any that really contradict the history of all the OT prophets, --- however, there are discrepancies in the Quran as there are in the Bible.
--- The Bible was written over some 1600 years, on three different continents, in three different languages, yet it has the one Message “That there is only One God that we are to worship.”
--- And when Jesus was asked, “What is the great commandment in the Law?” He responded in Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

--- The first one comes from Deuteronomy 6:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.”
--- And the second one comes from Leviticus 19:
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

And Jesus added that, (40) “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
What He said was that ‘the first commandment to love God’ involves our vertical relationship with God --- where we focus on our love for God and God’s love to us.
--- And in a surrendered life, God gives us His Holy Spirit, (as He inspired Muhammad in Surah 42:52), --- who guides us, in response to our devotion to Him.
Then the second commandment is our horizontal relationship to others. --- If we are (so to speak) a vessel of God’s love, then we demonstrate that love in our honest dealings with others, --- as well as sharing the Source of that love with others.
--- (That is why, if we are in right relationship with God, then we are ready to tell others what we believe.)

--- Then Jesus (in the Gospel/Injil) said: --- “These two commandments (from the OT) fulfill the Law (which was given through Moses), --- and the (writings of) the Prophets --- (from the time of Moses, until the New Covenant), --- And the New Covenant revived ‘the Love of God,’ and ‘love of others,’ which is the Message of the Gospel given in Matthew 5, beginning with 1-12, --- and continues till the end of chapter 7.

--- This continuation from the OT Message is confirmed in Surah 2:
87 Pickthall: “And verily We (God) gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit.”
87 Yusuf Ali: “We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit.”
87 Arberry: “And We gave to Moses the Book, and after him sent succeeding Messengers; and We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear signs, and confirmed him with the Holy Spirit.”

(More to follow)


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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 06 January 2013 at 4:55am
(To continue)

Quote: The problems with what we know call the Bible are numerous, but a few points are sufficient to mention here in order to show it's state. 1-God, between the OT and NT there is great difference of idea who is God. The followers of OT now (the Jews) have a completely different belief of who God is vs. the followers of the NT (the Christians) have a completely new and different idea of who God is.
These two different ideas about God coming out of a single book called the Bible is the single largest proof against it's authenticity.

Response: --- I don’t accept this as we are not concerned with men’s opinions, that can mislead us, --- but with the Word of God, which gives us the Way of salvation. --- As I have written above verifies, it is, “The same God, and the same Message” from Moses to Jesus, and to the Apostles and disciples, --- who continued it in their generation and beyond even till today --- (or else I wouldn’t be here to talk about it, would I?)

Quote: We cannot simply try to mix all the beliefs and think that we are doing the right thing. We may be making everyone happy, but not our maker. In Islam we do the other way, the first purpose of our life is to please our maker, and how we know he is pleased? He has told us that it is the acceptance of the truth by us that pleases Him.

Response: --- I believe that when we blend the truth from Abraham, through Moses, through Jesus, --- and to Muhammad, we understand the true Message.
Notice in Surah 3:3-4, where it confirms the former Scriptures, see what it says in the first and last of verse 7 in Surah 3:
7 Pickthall: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book.
None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

7 Yusuf Ali: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book:
But no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

7 Khalifa: He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture.
None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

The 'Book' refers to the revelation of the former Scriptures to Muhammad, as he was ‘living out’ the Message of the Quran. --- This Surah was revealed about the third year of the Hijrah, so it would be another 7 years before the last of the Surahs, would be revealed, which were included in the Quran. --- Though Imam Ali had a complete set, they were rejected, and it was about 20 years after Muhammad’s death before it was compiled in Book form, was it not?

Quote: We also need to understand how come there are so many different beliefs

Response: --- I don’t agree that we need to know anything about other religions which have split off from the worship of our One True God.
--- Since you said above: “The word of God, in its pure form was sent to mankind in the form of the Quran. It is a complete guidance for those who seek guidance from their maker.”

--- Then you are acknowledging that the Quran was ‘the new truth’ --- but since the revelations in the Quran only were inspired, --- we must deal with the Quran only. --- (When you say “It is a complete guidance,” --- then the answers are in the Quran, not in other writings, are they not? --- It is not what is ‘written’ in the Quran, but the ‘interpretation’ from man’s wisdom that can again lead the readers astray. --- Is that not right?)

I have read that Muhammad said to his companions, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that is not in the Quran.”

Hasan, I want you to understand that I am not suggesting that you become a Christian, --- but rather that you become open to what the Scriptures say, and not what others say about them. --- ('A surrendered one' to God and His word).

It seems that I use the Quran to defend God’s word, and most times the responses to my posts are negative, --- So I want to ask, --- “What parts of your Quran don’t you believe?”

--- BTW, --- I am expecting that sometime the other Christian brothers on this forum will challenge me on my favorable comments about Muhammad and the Quran, however, I will welcome that --- (perhaps as a new topic), because some of them seem to have a ‘prejudice,’ like most of the Muslim posters have.

A Scripture verse says, “Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth.”

(Sorry, for long posts, but this is the way many responses are given. --- However, these are given for your further study and consideration, --- and perhaps further discussion.)


Placid

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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 2:36pm
Placid,
I base my statement on what I find out there as evidence. I do not believe that God has limits like the OT suggests. I do not believe that God regrets as in OT. I do not believe that God commands unjustified killings on innocent children, trees, animals as in OT.
I do not believe God takes a ransom for our sins in the form of blood as the NT teaches. I do not believe that the Messiah was to be called "Almighty God" as the Christian Bible's OT shows while the Jewish Bible does not. A prime example of Bible manipulation.
So you can write pages, but can they refute and prove anything wrong what I said above? No and it will not take pages, just a few lines.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 7:00am
Hi Hasan,

Quote: I base my statement on what I find out there as evidence. I do not believe that God has limits like the OT suggests. I do not believe that God regrets as in OT. I do not believe that God commands unjustified killings on innocent children, trees, animals as in OT.

Response: --- You had said at the top of the page, “It is true that Torah and Injeel were sent by God for their times.”
I responded by saying: “The Torah that was given to Moses was preserved and the Ten Commandments are still for us today.” --- The message of the OT remains the same through the NT and the Quran, --- “There is no God but God.” ---- And we are to obey Him. --- Muhammad’s whole Mission was to destroy idolatry and restore worship of One God. --- Which he accomplished, did he not?
The OT was preserved and it was ‘intact’ when Jesus came. --- The New Covenant preserved the OT in the fulfillment of prophecy.

--- And the Quran says this in Surah 4:
163 We (God) have sent thee (Muhammad) inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
--- If this verse is true in the Quran, then we are to read and understand what they wrote, and realize, God inspired the writers, so it is God’s word, is it not?

If you disbelieve it, --- you are disbelieving God, --- you are disbelieving the confirmation by the angel Gabriel in the Quran, and you are disbelieving what Muhammad was given to preach to the people, are you not?
--- (What is the difference between a disbeliever and an unbeliever?)
   
Quote: I do not believe God takes a ransom for our sins in the form of blood as the NT teaches.

Response: --- The sacrifice of pure animals with their body drained of blood is taught all the way from Abraham to the priests in the Temple, when Jesus came.
Animal sacrifices were the constant part of Jewish worship because God said, ”Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.”
--- I could explain that sometime, but you wouldn't likely believe it, so since God commanded it, we accept it, whether we understand it or not, (Or else we make ourselves a judge of God).

Quote: I do not believe that the Messiah was to be called "Almighty God" as the Christian Bible's OT shows while the Jewish Bible does not. A prime example of Bible manipulation.

Response: --- Your criticism of God’s word and the OT is showing!!!
This is why we need to study it because the Personage mentioned was not Jesus, but Immanuel, (remember you said ‘names never change’).
Also, there is no mention of Almighty God, is there?
--- Your “Prime example of Bible manipulation” is interesting, because the Immanuel (God with us), who would come to earth to indwell the body of Jesus, was then called --- “The Prince of Peace.” --- You have to read it again.

Quote: So you can write pages, but can they refute and prove anything wrong what I said above? No and it will not take pages, just a few lines.

Response: --- I have said many times that the trinity doctrine was a ‘faulty’ doctrine. --- You still want to discuss with me from the same mindset that all Christians are Trinitarians. --- Trinity is rarely mentioned in our Churches and is considered a Church Doctrine, but it came out of the Old Roman Catholic Church, however many Churches still keep it as traditional.
Salvation is through Faith in God and obedience to Him, not on Church history or doctrines.
--- I am concerned that you reject what is written in the Quran, which was formerly written in the Bible, and was ‘confirmed’ to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.


Placid

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