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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Where is the Injil? Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Hasan,You are subject to your Imams and their interpretations and I have heard many different things from many different Imams.  The peaceful ones I like.  The ones who recognize that we no longer live in the times of Muhammad and interpret his scriptures according to the history of his time... those that realize that the scriptures and teaching need to fit with todays society.Salaam,CH



Caringheart,
you can believe or not believe in anything, that is up to you. It does not affect anyone else but you. But since you chose to hang around the forum in order to learn Muslim perspective this is Muslim perspective:
The Quran is the final word of God, and to follow it and follow the sunnah of the prophet (pbuh) is the only way, and that is not according to my opinion, that is according to the Quran. At the end it does not matter what you like, or I like rather what Allah likes.
People have choices to accept the truth or reject it. And God always has warned us of consequences for choices we make. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) has said that he is leaving with us two things, the Quran and his sunnah. Anyone following the two fully is on the right path, anyone who do not is far away.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 4:28pm
I fear that it may be you who is led down a wrong path.

Edited by Caringheart - 16 January 2013 at 4:31pm
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 2:08am
Originally posted by Caringheart

I fear that it may be you who is led down a wrong path.
 
You are getting brave in your old age?
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



I fear that it may be you who is led down a wrong path.





CArinheart,
if you make a claim but are unable to provide anything that can support it, then it is you that need to worry not me. After learning something if we don't remember and benefit from it, of what use is that learning? Think about it, don't put to waste all that learning, all that knowledge. I believe this kind of negligence will come to haunt you and those like you one day!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 21 January 2013 at 3:14pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 27 January 2013 at 8:13pm

Hello Islamispeace

Referring to your post dated 04 January

 

In terms of  the discussion regarding  “inspired word” as opposed to the “literal word” and  in your asking “What would be the purpose of "inspiring" the "words" yet leaving open the possibility of errors in the "ink?  You sound reminiscent of Ehrman. The text is a living interpretation of Gods truth and remains fluid enough to transcend culture, time and doctrinal discourse. Unlike your Koran straight jacket, the Christian text is the Word that lives and stirs us to a divine encounter and a response rather than a purely inscribed Word and verbum that is communicating only one static truth. That’s something you will never experience through your Koran trapped in an Arabic, grammatical prison.

 

Your quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia is just more Muslim text book stuff. That’s about all Muslims have. A text book religion. Its rich that a Muslim would try to instruct a Christian on the Holy Spirit when your idea of Gods Spirit led inspiration is to follow a cumbersome Fiqh, don a prayer robe and conduct ablutions all of which serve no purpose in spiritual cleansing or holiness and then parrot the Koran in a language that most of you don’t even understand.

In terms of the definition for “inspired” you provided from the Catholic Encyclopedia, I’ll stick to 2 Timothy 3.16 definition thanks. You say the Christian scriptures are like  traveling half-way to your destination and then turning around and going home. Im not sure what that’s supposed to mean ?

 
In regards to the Christian oral tradition you say that the oral tradition does not mean that Christians "memorized" the Bible and it just means that stories were told and then passed around. In you saying this you underestimate the traditions of the early Church in memorizing scripture through songs and hymns, dance, and the liturgy associated with baptism and communion and the oral teachings passed on down through the apostolic line.

 
In my criticism of most Muslims not speaking Arabic and your reply that most Christians cannot read Hebrew and Greek, again you are missing the point. While Hebrew and Greek are helpful and most Christian leaders are familiar with these languages, overall truth and meaning are not tied to archaic languages of antiquity, such as Muslims burdened and shackled with Classical Arabic.

 
In regards to First century manuscripts of the NT and of the Koran. Who are you to ask for even one 1st century New Testament manuscript when you can't produce a pre-Uthmanic manuscript at all except maybe the highly problematic and contentious Sanaa manuscript that sheds major doubt on the Koran?! 

Also you cannot prove that the memorizations of your reciters of the  Koran line up with the pre Uthman Koran.

 

Regarding Puin you said “perhaps if Puin had actually read the Quran, he would have realized that the Quran states that some of its verses are purposefully cryptic and that only those who lack faith will dwell on those verses while completely ignoring the verses which are clear.”

Of course Puin read and reads the Koran. He reads and knows the Koran in Classical Arabic better than you and most of the Arabic world.

How convenient to use the “faith argument’ when you say “that the Quran states that some of its verses are purposefully cryptic and that only those who lack faith will dwell on those verses while completely ignoring the verses which are clear.’ How can Muslims then claim the “Word of God” written in Arabic to be the literal “Word”?

 

You said “Just because it is "incomprehensible" to Puin does not mean it is actually "incomprehensible".  Also, one has to wonder how being "incomprehensible" is evidence of and "evolving" text.”

Its obvious The Koran is a book rooted in human history. Puin concluded the sheer number of variants found could not be dismissed as mere scribal errors since the so-called errors are repeated with the same word several times in several fragments. Thus, as Puin emphasizes, “it makes common philological sense (for Muslims) to look for a rationale. The recurrent deviations from the Standard Egyptian text must be taken seriously, and cannot be swept under the carpet, and attributed to scribal inadequacy.”

 

I’ll sick with Puins conclusion that “It is not one single work that has survived unchanged through the centuries. It may include stories that were written before the prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten”.

Puin goes on to say- “My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants.”

 
Anyway evolving text or not. You again miss the point. It shatters the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”. That everything between its two covers is just God’s unaltered word.

 

Regarding Ehrman and your question as to how can a supposedly "inspired" book have such serious theological problems?  Ive already explained the difference between inspired and infallible. It's not as difficult to understand as you make out.

 

You claim I non-chalantly dismiss the theological problems that come with these textual variants and that put the whole theology of books in question. Many of the examples Ehrman gives are disputable and have been debated and disputed for decades or and even centuries.

As already  stated Ehrman admits no fundamentals tenets of Christianity have been challenged from his work and further to that Bruce .M .Metzger whom Ehrman dedicates “Misquoting Jesus” to and whom Ehrman refers to as “Doctor – Father” is quoted as stating the variations are minor and the significant variations do not over throw any doctrine of the church.

Metzger actually stated, “it ( critical NT study) has increased the basis of my personal faith to see the firmness with which these materials have come down to us with a multiplicity of copies”

The Case for the Real Jesus pg. 99

Lee Strobel

 

In Gordon D Fees review of The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture (Misquoting Jesus is a popularized version of in The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture) Critical review of Books in religion. (1995), he said “Unfortunately Ehrman too often turns mere possibility into probability and probability into certainty, where other equally viable reasons for (textual) corruption exist”

 

Another NT scholar, Daniel Wallace says “The fact is that scholars across the theological spectrum say that in all essentials – not in every particular, but in all essentials – our NT manuscripts go back to the originals. Ehrman is part of a very small minority of textual critics in what he’s saying.”

Lee Strobel- The Case for the Real Jesus pg. 72

 

Ehrman claims that the interpretation of whole NT books is at stake. Christian theologians have been discussing these issues long before Ehrman. Wallace analyses one of Ehmans claims for example looking at the Book of Hebrews, particularly around the description of the death of Jesus as outlined in Hebrews 2.9 and Ehrmans further link to Hebrews 5.7. Critically reviewing this example, Wallace summarizes Ehrman is over stating his case.

 

Regarding where you quote Ehrman in saying  “many of the books and epistles were probably later forgeries.”   Again NT scholars are more than versed in theses books and epistles which were later forgeries and besides your claim is vague.

You citing Origens critique of the NT only validates Christian scholarly integrity. Again there is nothing  new in what Erhman and you are saying. Christians have worked through this staff for centuries as Origen illustrates.

 

In regards to a linear or radial transmission of texts (radial meaning a few copies made of an original manuscript that all went in different directions) what the radial transmission does, as opposed to a linear transmission, is that it validates the reliability of the reconstructed text through samples that are diverse in geographical spread.

You ask when were these "1800 pages of text" written? Again you miss the point. What ever the dates may be, it is more manuscript data that validate the reconstructed text.

 

In regards to early Church leaders quoting extensively from the scriptures as verifying the reliability of the NT you said “these were all later figures, not earlier than the early 2nd century. This is no different than having only 2nd century manuscripts as the absolute earliest "witnesses".”

Considering that many of the eye witness disciples lived up to the 2nd century your comment is disingenuous. The point is they were quoting from 1st Century texts and 1st century oral traditions.

For example. In his writings Ignatius of Antioch quotes -

John 8:29, John 17:11-12, James 4:6  names Onesimus as in Philemon, John 1:14,  1 Tim 4:10,  1 Pet 2:9, 9 – Matt 5:2, 2 Tim 2:24-25, Luke 23:34, 11 – Rom 2:4, 12 – Matt 23:35, Acts 9:15, Eph 6:16, Luke 10:27, Matt 12:33,  1 Cor 4:20, Rom 10:10, 2 Cor 8:18, Cor 6:14-16,Cor 1:20 , 3 – 1 Tim 4:12 ,4 – Luke 6:46, 8 – 2 Cor 5:17, mentions Judaizers , 9 – 2 Thess 3:10, Phil 3:18-19, 2 Tim 3:4, 10 – Acts 11:26,9 – Heb 10:12-13, 11 – warns of "Nicolaitanes",2 – 2 Cor 4:18 ,Gal 2:20 ,

2 Tim 3:6, Rev 1:7

 

Clement quotes –

Titus 3:1, Acts 20:35 , 1 Pet 3:20, 2 Pet 2:5 , Heb 11:5 , 1 Cor 2:9 and calls it scripture , 35 – Rom 1:32 ,  Heb 1:3-4 , Church as a body metaphor, as in 1 Corinthians , James 4:1 Jesus' “millstone” quote (which is present in Matthew, Mark and Luke) , James 5:20.

 

You said Islam has first century manuscripts in having an inscription that contains Surah 112 (Al-Ikhlas) from the year 650 CE, which puts it right around the time of Uthman's rule. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this one of the contentious palimpsests of the Sanaa Koran that Puin critiques?  If so then ironically Sura 112 is particularly a highly contentious verse shedding doubt on the Korans veracity in terms of who the speaker is – God or Mohammad ?

 
You say  that Muslims have been reciting the same Quran for the past 1400 years, with no variation or disagreement, as proof that the Quran has remained as it was when it was revealed. As I asked above. What are your reciters reciting? Pre Uthman Koran or Post Uthman Koran?

You have no evidence that there are no significant textual variants in the Koran since you don’t have your original Koran manuscripts since Uthman. The only way to prove that it is not defective would be to compare it to the originals.

 

You mention Gier in stating there is no record of Caesar Augustus' decree for a census. There are many scholars who would disagree with Gier. There could be any number of reasons for no mention of Caesar Augustus' decree, and this is an issue more than adequately addressed by people such as Historian Dr. Edwin Yamauchi and Roman historian A. N. Sherwin White. See the attached site. http://www.jashow.org/Articles/editors-choice/EC1205W3C.htm

 

Keener gives numerous examples of historical fact lining up with the NT. He describes how the family of Sergis Paulus mentioned in Acts 13 matches inscriptions found in South Asia Minor, the death of Herod Agripa in Caesera is mentioned by the ancient historian Josephus.

Travel itineraries listed in Acts match the known geography even in obscure areas such as Anatolia where people didn’t travel much, plus the description of people using their local languages and being worshipers of Hermes and Zeus match up with what is now known. The account of Lydia a dealer in purple cloth line sup with the ancient city of Thyatira which is known as a centre of cloth dyeing. These are all examples of historical evidence matching the bible.

Keener states a survey done on NT scholars both Christian and non Christian cite the Book of acts as a history or biography not a poem, legend or epic, and further more it is supported by extra biblical sources.



Edited by Experiential - 28 January 2013 at 2:22am
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 2:18pm
The question remains for all Christians, where is the Injeel, the Gospel that Jesus was preaching according to the Bible account? Do anyone has the answer?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by honeto

The question remains for all Christians, where is the Injeel, the Gospel that Jesus was preaching according to the Bible account? Do anyone has the answer?
Hasan


Yes, Hasan, Smile

Jesus was the good news... the Gospel... the 'new thing' being done by God... the new covenant.
Jesus was teaching about Himself.  Jesus is the good news... the Gospel(the thing that was meant by 'the injeel')  It was not a book.  It was the message of Jesus.

Salaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by honeto

The question remains for all Christians, where is the Injeel, the Gospel that Jesus was preaching according to the Bible account? Do anyone has the answer?
Hasan
The New Testament (4 Gospels, Book of Acts and the letters of Peter, James, John and Paul and the Book of Revelation) were all well  established long before Mohamad came on the scene in the 7th Century. Its obvious the Injeel Mohamad was referring to was the same.
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