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Interfaith Dialogue
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 2:19pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

"I said that there are 1st-century manuscripts of the Quran.  Do you disagree?  Do you want me to provide examples?"
The point is, I want people to do their own research.


But the question is: Have you done the research?  The answer is pretty clear. 

So let me repeat: Do you disagree that there are 1st-century manuscripts of the Quran?  Do you want examples? 

Why do you 'pretend' to know so much about the religion of others... the scriptures of others?


When did I say that?  Why do you ignore what I actually wrote?  If I thought that I knew so much about Christianity, why would I refer to Christian commentaries on the New Testament?  Why would I used Jewish commentaries on the Tanakh?  In short, why would I provide...citations? 

You, on the other hand, make blanket statements and refuse to provide citations.  You pretend that you know so much about Islam and that we Muslims are ignorant.  And when you are exposed and refuted, you point fingers and say "well, why do you pretend to know so much about the religion of other..." and other blabbering nonsense. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I don't pretend anything.  I state what I have read.  You are free to dispute.  Are you pretending, or stating what you have read?  This is called free exchange of ideas and learning.  Do you seek to learn more or do you already know it all?  I know that there is more than I can ever absorb just about my own beliefs and their origins, and their faults, let alone all there is to know about all the beliefs of others.  That is why we must each be free to choose our own.  This is why we must talk to each other and know each other, so that we may trust each other, and live in peace with all people.


And you refuse to reveal what you have "read".  You assume that what you have "read" must be true.  And then you come here and say stereotypical things and then have the gall to accuse Muslims of being "prejudiced"!  How hilarious!

In short, you are an ignorant bigot who "reads" like-minded bigoted sources on Islam and then claims that you have "researched" Islam.  Did you not admit to me in PM that you mostly "Google" everything on Islam?  How many authentic Islamic sources have you used to "learn" about Islam?  Here is you final chance.  List your "sources" on Islam.  Separate your personal claims from those you have read elsewhere.  I gave you this chance in my PM to you as well and you ignored it.  What a shock?  But will you ignore it in front of everyone else?  Only time will tell...
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 2:31pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think it is hilarious but not adorable, how you think I am trying to 'blow you[or anyone] away'.  Not doing any such thing, just stating facts... leaving it open for others to do research.
I am not claiming to have all knowledge of your religion.  I am learning about your religion.  I think the clearest evidence is in the fruits produced by the religion.  To where can you point me to see the good of Islam?


You are such a liar.  You made a claim about the Quran's preservation.  I proved you wrong.  You did not offer a rebuttal and yet still insist that you were "just stating facts".  You should have said "just stating facts...as I see them..." 

Speaking of fruits, if you are the fruit of your religion, then I think I am going to switch to vegetables only! LOL

Why are you asking me to "point" you "to see the good of Islam"?  Why now?  I thought you "researched" Islam?  Confused

Originally posted by Caringheart

Why do you think I [try] to refer to muslim sources when I share information?  These sources are never allowed on the forum.


Oh please...Didn't I ask you to provide your sources in the PM?  What happened?  Where did you go? 

If the moderators are blocking your "sources", it must be for a good reason.  Perhaps you should ask them why.  Their explanation may prove what I have suspected about you from the beginning.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Glad you had a good laugh, but it seems you spend a great deal of time on the scripture of others, not on your own.  When do you ever answer questions about your own?  That is if the questions are even allowed to be asked.


Actually, psychic Caringheart, I spend most of my time reading the Quran.  I have read it many times through.  I also spend a lot of time studying the Bible and reading Christian and Jewish commentaries.  Also, unlike you, when I make a claim about the Bible, I back it up with citations.  You like to cut and paste a lot and don't provide citations. 

Originally posted by Caringheart


Just a note...
Do you think your condescending remarks help your arguments or make you more credible?
Your snide, cutting, remarks only appear as attempts to demoralize, rather than to promote discussion.


I could care less what you think!  I don't care if I am not "more credible" to you.  Sorry to disappoint you, but no one really cares what an ignorant bigot like you thinks, except of course, other ignorant bigots. 

Who in their right mind would want to have a "discussion" with a stereotyping ignoramus?  It's impossible!  It would be like a Jewish person having a "discussion" with a neo-Nazi!


Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 2:32pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

islamispeace,

I have some questions to ask... Would you be willing to start a new thread?
Since you say you know your scriptures perhaps you would be willing to enlighten me.

Salaam,
CH


Of course, my lady! 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 3:31pm
"If the moderators are blocking your "sources", it must be for a good reason.  Perhaps you should ask them why."

I will comment just to this one thing.  I have asked them and have never received an answer.

and this, islamispeace (?),
I will say that the only bigoted person with preconceived notions and a closed mind, that I see here(in our conversations), is you.
You are seeking only the answers that you want to hear... answers that will validate your skewed beliefs.
I am seeking answers that will dispel my concerns.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 24 December 2012 at 3:54pm
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

"If the moderators are blocking your "sources", it must be for a good reason.  Perhaps you should ask them why."

I will comment just to this one thing.  I have asked them and have never received an answer.

and this, islamispeace (?),
I will say that the only bigoted person with preconceived notions and a closed mind, that I see here(in our conversations), is you.
You are seeking only the answers that you want to hear... answers that will validate your skewed beliefs.
I am seeking answers that will dispel my concerns.

Salaam,
CH


Then send them to me by PM.  This isn't rocket science, Caringheart. 

A bigot calling me a bigot!  That's rich.  I am not the one who made stereotypical statements against a group of people and then claimed that I only want to "learn". 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 28 December 2012 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Hasan,

Quote: In my post I did mention those verses from the Quran that clearly state the alterations to what we now collectively call the Bible.

Response: --- I thought I answered these verses a few posts above, where it says, "They threw it behind their backs." --- That didn't alter any Scriptures, just what they said about it, and the lies they might have told about it.

--- When I read in the Quran that The Angel Gabiel confirmed the Gospel, and that God preserves it in safety, I believe it.

When you say, "No, that refers to the original writings," ---(Of which you have never seen, so that you can say,--- "Here it says this, and now it says that.")


--- Have you not taken those portions of the Quran and thrown them behind your back?
Whereas, that doeesn't change the Quran, does it? --- It only proves that you don't want to believe it.

However, I was told "If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran."
--- I read it and I believe it.

So show us a verse where the Quran says "The Scripture has been altered."






Placid,
are you kidding me, open those verses and don't forget to open your eyes.
"they change words from their right places" "they forgot a good portion of it"
"Our Apostle revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book"
One thing you cannot say it means is "unchanged". One thing is certain "change"

If you need definition of change:
"change [cheynj] Show IPA verb, changed, chang·ing, noun.
verb (used with object)
1.
to make the form, nature, content, future course, etc., of (something) different from what it is or from what it would be if left alone"

Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 29 December 2012 at 4:55am
Hi Hasan,

This is the response I posted on Page 5:
Hi Honeto,

These verses don’t say that the Scriptures were changed, they just say that the people put them behind them and weren’t obedient to God.
Quote: --- 3:187 (Y. Ali) And remember Allah took a covenant from the people of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!
Response: --- The various covenants that God made with the Children of Israel when He said, “I will be your God, and you will be My people,“ --- are still written in the Scriptures for anybody to read, --- The Jews rejected God, and God rejected them, --- and brought in the New Covenant.

Quote: --- Al Maidah (5):12 God did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel......(13) their hearts grew hard. They changed the words from their places and forgot a good part of the messsage that was sent them..

Response: --- In their sermons and their writings, they changed the words, but only to influence others to believe as they did. --- They didn’t gather up the hundreds of manuscripts and thousands of copies already printed and change each one of them. But rather they did like this footnote says in Mr Pickthall’s translation in Surah 2:
58 And when We said: Go into this township and eat freely of that which is therein, and enter the gate prostrate, and say: "Repentance."* --- We will forgive you your sins and will increase (reward) for the right-doers.
--- The footnote on “Repentance”* says, “According to a tradition of the Prophet, - Hittatun – is a word implying submission to God and ‘repentance.’ --- The evil-doers changed it for a word of ‘rebellion’ --- i.e. they were disobedient.”
--- And again in Surah 2:
104 O ye who believe, say not (unto the Prophet): "Listen to us" but say "Look upon us,"* --- and be ye listeners. For disbelievers is a painful doom.
--- The footnote * says: “The first word which the Muslims used to call the Prophet’s attention respectfully, Ra’ina, the Jews would change into an insult by a slight mispronunciation.

Quote: --- 14 From those who call themselves Christians we did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them.........soon will God show them what it is they have done.

Response: --- For those who CALL themselves Christians, --- they no doubt forgot a lot so that is why they were ‘so-called’ Christians. --- Do not many terrorist today, CALL themselves Muslims, --- but are they ‘Surrendered’ and submissive to God?
---The ‘so called’ Christians didn’t change anything written in the Gospels, any more than the ‘so called’ Muslims have changed anything written in the original Quran? --- (Even though they are abrogating some of it in some versions, --- are they not?)

Quote: --- 15. O people of the Book (Jews and Christians) there hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you that you used to hide in the book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary)."
--- (What became unnecessary for both Christians and Muslims was the Jewish laws, which the Jews didn’t keep themselves.)
--- There hath come to you from God a new light and a perspicuous Book.
16 Wherewith God guides all who seek His good pleasure, to ways of peace and safety, and leads them out of darkness by His will, Unto the light that guides them to a path that is straight

Response: --- Right on. The light (revelation) was given to Muhammad in Surah 42:
52 And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

--- The Holy Spirit of God’s command inspired in Muhammad the knowledge of the former Scriptures, (the same way that God gave the Torah and Gospel [Injil] to Jesus, through His intellect), --- This gave Muhammad the Faith to be God’s messenger to his own people, --- And the message led to a ‘right path.’

Which is what it says of Jesus in Surah 3:
48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50 (Then Jesus said) '(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

--- So there you have it, --- the ‘right path,’ following Muhammad's life of Faith and obedience to God, being enlightened by God’s Holy Spirit
--- Or accepting Jesus as the Savior and Servant by Faith, then loving and worshiping God, which is the Way that is straight.
--- (This is why, when it says the same in the Quran as it says in the Gospel about the 'Way that is straight,' --- There is really no reason to criticize Christians for what they believe, is there?) --- End of former post.


Notice: --- The ones that 'threw the Scriptures behind their backs,' or the ones that 'forgot some of what they were taught' didn't change anything, did they? The Scripture they 'put behind their backs,' or 'forgot,' was still there for others to read and believe, was it not?

I can give you an example:
My wife and I belonged to the Gideons, who are the Businessmen's Organization that place Bibles in hotel and motel rooms where they are accepted.

This is on record with the Gideons that years ago a man was converted and gave this testimony. --- When he was a 'transient,' living on the street, he looked in the garbage for food, and in one can, or bin, he found a Bible, and on the front cover it read "Placed by the Gideons." --- In whatever state of mind he was in he thought, "If they placed it there for me, I better take it." --- He took it and read it, and believed it."

--- Various times the free Bibles are taken from hotels, and if they are read and believed, it is a benefit to the reader. --- If someone has a Bible and throws it away, or 'throws it behind his back,' it doesn't change it or destroy it, but it can be read by someone else.

There are some who read the Bible and only believe the parts that they like and they kind of 'throw the rest behind their back,' or 'forget' the parts they don't like. --- That's human nature, is it not?


Placid



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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2013 at 2:30am
Originally posted by Placid




--- So there you have it, --- the ‘right path,’ following Muhammad's life of Faith and obedience to God, being enlightened by God’s Holy Spirit
--- Or accepting Jesus as the Savior and Servant by Faith, then loving and worshiping God, which is the Way that is straight.
--- (This is why, when it says the same in the Quran as it says in the Gospel about the 'Way that is straight,' --- There is really no reason to criticize Christians for what they believe, is there?) --- End of former post.


Notice: --- The ones that 'threw the Scriptures behind their backs,' or the ones that 'forgot some of what they were taught' didn't change anything, did they? The Scripture they 'put behind their backs,' or 'forgot,' was still there for others to read and believe, was it not?



 
Mr.Placid,
 
I think it's about time you took off your blinkers.
 
You are trying to reconcile Christianity with Islam when the two are far away from each other as the East is from the West. We have given you clear verses from the Holy Qur'an which states that the Torah AND the Injil are corrupted by human hands yet you want to ignore that and in your twisted mind you think the Holy Qur'an backs up the Bible. It does not. How can Christianity and Islam be similar when one teaches the trinity and the other is pure monotheism?
 
Now I will post a clear verse from the Holy Qur'an and if you have difficulties understanding it then I will further elaborate for you Insha'Allah.
 
Sahih International
 
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171
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