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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Where is the Injil? Post Reply Post New Topic
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 8:46pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

"The Quran makes it clear that Christians have strayed from Jesus' message."
and yet you say that the Qur'an promotes no prejudice...
The word prejudice (or foredeeming) is most often used to refer to preconceived, usually unfavorable, judgments toward people or a person because of gender, social class, age, disability, religion, sexuality, race/ethnicity, language, nationality or other personal characteristics. It can also refer to unfounded beliefs and may include "any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence." Gordon Allport defined prejudice as a "feeling, favorable or unfavorable, toward a person or thing, prior to, or not based on, actual experience."
further:
-Those who practice “institutionalized religion,” which focuses more on social and political aspects of religious events, are more likely to have an increase in prejudice. Those who practice “interiorized religion,” in which believers devote themselves to their beliefs, are most likely to have a decrease in prejudice.
Prejudice and discrimination are negative manifestations of integrative power. Instead of bringing or holding people together, prejudice and discrimination push them apart. Ironically, even prejudice and discrimination imply some sort of relationship, however. If there is no relationship people would be completely unaware of another person's or group's existence. When there is any relationship at all--even a negative one--there is some integration. (http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/problem/prejdisc.htm)


LOL Awww, look at you Caringheart!  Trying to use citations to prove your point, although the quotes you mentioned are not found in the link you gave. Confused

Also, one has to wonder how the belief that Christians have strayed from the message of Jesus (pbuh) is "prejudiced".  Christians believe that all non-Christians are wrong and destined for hell.  Ask any Christian here and see what answer you get.

Moreover, your continued accusations and finger-pointing of Muslims and Islam is ironic given your incessant stereotypes of Muslims.  Here is what the source you referred to above says about stereotyping:

"Stereotypes are essentially assumptions that are made about a person or group's character or attributes, based on a general image of what a particular group of people is like." [1] 

Awkward!!

By the way, I think the Quran answers your ridiculous claims of "prejudice":

"
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." (60:8)

I have already mentioned this verse in another thread.  Obviously, you don't read my responses carefully or you just have a very short memory. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You totally missed the point:
"When you read Ehrman, he clearly has an agenda.  But if Muslims take what he[Ehrman] has to say to their logical conclusion, you would have to abandon Islam too.  Why use a scholar who employs arguments which damage Islam?"


Because, as you missed my point, Ehrman's personal opinions about religion are not the issue.  His area of expertise is not religion, but New Testament textual criticism and early Christian history.  Christians, instead of trying to refute his arguments, either attack his credentials or try to persuade Muslims that referring to his work on NT textual criticism somehow makes it a requirement for Muslims to accept his opinions on religion in general.  Such as argument is a childish ruse, which is used in an attempt to forgo providing an actual response to the claims Ehrman makes about the New Testament.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I find it amusing that people keep spouting this refrain without actually doing the research into the matter.
 

LOL And I suppose you have done the research, right?  Umm, what are your sources again for this "research"?  Still not providing citations, like I asked? 

What I find amusing is that you think you know something that I don't!  I said that there are 1st-century manuscripts of the Quran.  Do you disagree?  Do you want me to provide examples?  Please tell me you want me to provide examples!  Pretty please!!

Originally posted by Caringheart

There were 7 different ways of reciting revealed to Muhammad..


Yes, that is true.  These 7 ways of recitation were based on different dialects.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Muhammad's followers could choose which to recite - so different people would hear different things, and they were different enough to cause fights among the followers.  This is why there was so much confusion when it came time to create 'the book'... the Qur'an.


Not quite, dear.  This is where your "research" is exposed as half-hearted, and biased.  I have already dealt with this matter in my response to Experiential.  Perhaps if you had read it, you would not be repeating the same ridiculous argument.  Read my response to Experiential from 11/28.

I don't understand why you people try to pretend that you know so much about a topic that you are so clueless on.  Why humiliate yourself? 

Originally posted by Caringheart

There are also 3 different types of abrogation


And as Dr. Ahmad Ali al-Imam explains, only one of these types of abrogation are supported by the evidence.  According to Dr. al-Imam:

"...many reasons exist for objecting to both kinds of abrogation [while accepting 'naskh al-hukm wa baqa al-tilawah']:

1.  All of the examples given are inauthentic, contradictory, or isolated reports in many different versions.

2.  The examples differ from the Qur'an's style, as can be seen by comparing the ends of surahs 2 and 3 with dua al-qunut (usually recited during prayer).

3.  All usulis (usul al-fiqh scholars) agree that the Qur'an is substantiated only by successive reports, whereas the examples given are isolated reports." ("Variant Readings of the Qur'an: A Critical Study of Their Historical and Linguistic Origins", p. 36).


Therefore, only one type of abrogation is supported by the evidence and this is "
naskh al-hukm wa baqa al-tilawah" (abrogating the ruling and keeping its recitation).  This is well-known to Islamic scholars and it is nothing new.  It's hilarious and adorable how you think you know something that will blow us away!  LOL

What was that you said about "research"? 

Here is a little bed-time reading for you.  These are books you should read to educate yourself about the Quran's history and its preservation:

1.  "Variant Readings of the Quran" by Dr. Al-Imam.

2.  "The History of the Quranic Text from Revelation to Compilation: A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments" by Dr. M.M. al-Azami.

Originally posted by Caringheart

this is laughable...
aren't you always trying to tell other people about their religion?  Have you studied your own?  Somehow I do not get the impression that you have.


No, what's "laughable" is that you people cannot respond to any criticism of your religion with reasoned responses but with finger-pointing and red herrings.  Moreover, I don't tell you about your religion on my own merit.  That is why I refer to scholarly sources.  Why do you think I refer to Christian commentaries when quoting from the New Testament?  Why do you think I refer to Jewish commentaries when quoting the Tanakh? 

Oh and for an ignoramus, who thinks she has got the drop on Muslims but who is actually clueless about Islam, to ask if I have studied my religion is the epitome of comedy!  I had a good laugh at that one! 


Edited by islamispeace - 22 December 2012 at 8:51pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:10pm
""Stereotypes are essentially assumptions that are made about a person or group's character or attributes, based on a general image of what a particular group of people is like." [1]  "
Right, precisely, glad you took the time to read at the source I provided.
You make my point.  My scriptures do not create assumptions about a group's character or attributes.  My scripture teaches to treat people as individuals.  I come to the forum seeking to get to know individuals because I make no assumptions about groups of people.

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." (60:8)
Yes, if people live by this verse I have no problem with the quran.  The problem is that there are many verses that conflict with this one, and we must consider which comes first, which are abrogated.  This is the problem with the quran.
As I have been saying, it comes down to interpretation doesn't it, and what people choose to follow?

Salaam,
CH
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:11pm
"I said that there are 1st-century manuscripts of the Quran.  Do you disagree?  Do you want me to provide examples?"
The point is, I want people to do their own research.

"I don't understand why you people try to pretend that you know so much about a topic that you are so clueless on. "
Why do you 'pretend' to know so much about the religion of others... the scriptures of others?
I don't pretend anything.  I state what I have read.  You are free to dispute.  Are you pretending, or stating what you have read?  This is called free exchange of ideas and learning.  Do you seek to learn more or do you already know it all?  I know that there is more than I can ever absorb just about my own beliefs and their origins, and their faults, let alone all there is to know about all the beliefs of others.  That is why we must each be free to choose our own.  This is why we must talk to each other and know each other, so that we may trust each other, and live in peace with all people.

Edited by Caringheart - 23 December 2012 at 1:13pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:14pm
"It's hilarious and adorable how you think you know something that will blow us away! "
I think it is hilarious but not adorable, how you think I am trying to 'blow you[or anyone] away'.  Not doing any such thing, just stating facts... leaving it open for others to do research.
I am not claiming to have all knowledge of your religion.  I am learning about your religion.  I think the clearest evidence is in the fruits produced by the religion.  To where can you point me to see the good of Islam?

"Why do you think I refer to Christian commentaries when quoting from the New Testament?  Why do you think I refer to Jewish commentaries when quoting the Tanakh?"
Why do you think I [try] to refer to muslim sources when I share information?  These sources are never allowed on the forum.

Glad you had a good laugh, but it seems you spend a great deal of time on the scripture of others, not on your own.  When do you ever answer questions about your own?  That is if the questions are even allowed to be asked.


Just a note...
Do you think your condescending remarks help your arguments or make you more credible?
Your snide, cutting, remarks only appear as attempts to demoralize, rather than to promote discussion.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 23 December 2012 at 1:21pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 23 December 2012 at 7:22pm
islamispeace,

I have some questions to ask... Would you be willing to start a new thread?
Since you say you know your scriptures perhaps you would be willing to enlighten me.

Salaam,
CH
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 23 December 2012 at 9:35pm

Originally posted by abu loren

Where is the Injil?

Surprisingly Muhammad and ancient Muhammadans had it right in their possession, without it the Quran would not have been completed! So, why is it modern day Muslims today do not know where is the Injil? Could it be they truly believe Ibn Khazem rather than the prophet’s Quran?

In plain English the QURAN tells you where! READ IT FOR YOURSELVES

A1. Mary (Maryam) 19:12, Middle Meccan in -7 AH.

God says, "`Oh Yahya! (John the Baptist) take hold of the Book with might': and We gave him wisdom as a child."

A2. The Family of `Imran (Ali `Imran) 3:48, 2-3 AH.

The Angel Gabriel is speaking to Mary about Jesus before Jesus' birth and says: "And he (God) will teach him the book and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel"

A3. The Forbidding (Al-Tahrim) 66:12, 7 AH.

"and Mary (Jesus' mother)...believed in the words of her Lord and His Books"

A4. The Family of `Imran (Ali `Imran) 3:49-50, 2-3 AH.

Jesus says, "I have come to you...attesting to (the truth of) what is between my hands of the Torah, and to make lawful to you a part of that which is forbidden to you."

A5. The Battle Array (Al-Saff) 61:6, from 3 AH.

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: `Oh Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God to you, confirming that which IS between my hands from the Torah...'"

A6. The Table (Al-Ma'ida) 5:49, 10 AH.

"And in their footsteps (of Moses and the Jews) We sent Jesus the son of Mary, attesting to (the truth of) the Torah which was between his hands; and We gave him the Gospel - therein is guidance and light and attesting to (the truth of) the Torah which was between his hands: a guidance and an admonition to the righteous."

A7. 5:113.

"Then will God say, `O Jesus son of Mary! Recount my favor to you and to your mother when I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit, so that you spoke to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel...

We can only conclude from this that the True Unchanged Torah was present in the first century when Jesus lived.

Since the Sura of The Forbidding (Al-Tahrim) from 7 AH quoted above [A3] says that Mary believed in "His (God's) Books" (kutubihi), this must refer to the Books which the other Prophets brought to the Jews, as well as the Torah of Moses.

LET ME SHOW YOU VERSES THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WERE LIVING DURING THE PERIOD BETWEEN JESUS AND MUHAMMAD

B1. The Table (Al-Ma'ida) 5:113-114, 10 AH.

"Then will God say, `O Jesus son of Mary! Recount my favor to you... Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel...

"And behold! I inspired the disciples (al-hawariyun) to have faith in Me and My apostle (Jesus). They said (to Jesus), `We have faith and (you must) bear witness that we are Muslims (submitted ones)."

B2. The Family of `Imran (Ali `Imran) 3:52-53, 2-3 AH.

"When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said, `Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?' The disciples said, `We are God's helpers. We believe in God and (you must) bear witness that we are Muslims (submitted ones). "`Our Lord we believe in what You have revealed and we follow the apostle (Jesus).'"

B3. The Battle Array (Al-Saff) 61:14, 3 AH.

"O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the disciples, `Who will be my helpers for God?' The Disciples said, `We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed."

VERSES SHOWING THAT THE TORAH AND THE GOSPEL WERE TRUE AND UNCHANGED AT THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD.

C1. The City of Saba (Saba) 34:31, Early Meccan.

"And the unbelievers say, `We will not believe in this Qur'an, nor in that which IS between his (its) hands (the Torah and the Gospel)'..."

Note: The CAPITAL LETTERS show verbs which are in the present tense for Muhammad and his people. Italics have been used for phrases speaking of groups of Jews or Christians at the time of Muhammad spoken of as believers or unbelievers in order to emphasize that there were always some true believers who would not have changed their own scriptures.

C2. The Originator of Creation (Fatir) 35:31, Early Meccan.

"That which we have revealed to you of the Book is the truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands (the Torah and Gospel)..."

C3. Jonah (Yunus) 10:37, Late Meccan.

"This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than God; but it is a verification of that (the Torah and Gospel) which IS between his (its) hands, and the explanation of the book, wherein there IS no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds."

C4. Joseph (Yusuf) 12:111, Late Meccan.

"...It (the Qur'an) is not a fabricated story, but a verification of that (the Torah and Gospel) which IS between his (its) hands, a detailed explanation, a guide and a mercy to the people who believe."

C5. The Cattle (Al-An`am) 6:154-157, Late Meccan.

"Then We gave Moses the Book complete as to whatever is excellent, and explaining all things in detail, and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. And this (the Qur'an) is a Book which We have revealed, blessed: so follow it and be righteous, that you may receive mercy: lest you should say, `The Book was sent down to two peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study;' or lest you should say: `If the Book (Torah and Gospel) had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they.'"

C6. The Believer (Al-Mu'min) 40:69-70, Late Meccan.

"Do you (Muhammad) not see those who dispute concerning the signs of God? How are they turned away? Those who REJECT the Book, and that (book) with which We sent our apostles, they shall know when the collars shall be around their necks, and the chains, they shall be dragged along."

C7. Winding Sand Tracts (Al-Ahqaf) 46:12, Late Meccan.

"And before this was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: and this Book is a verification (of it) in the Arabic tongue to warn those who transgress and as glad tidings to the righteous."

C8. 46:29-30.

"Behold, We turned towards you a company of Jinns listening to the Qur'an...When the (reading) was finished they returned to their people as warners. They said, `O our people! we have heard a Book revealed after Moses attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands (the Torah) - guiding to the truth and to a straight path.'"

C9. The Heifer (Al-Baqara) 2:91, 2 AH.

"When it is said to them, `Believe in what God has sent down,' they say, `We believe in what was sent down to us (the Torah)': yet they reject all besides, even if it be truth attesting to (the truth of) what IS WITH THEM (the Torah)..."

C10. Family of `Imran (Ali `Imran) 3:3, 2-3 AH.

"It is He (God) who sent down to thee the Book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) what IS between its (his) hands (the Bible), and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel before this as a guide to mankind."

C11. The Women (Al-Nisa') 4:162-163, 5-6 AH.

"But those of them (the Jews) that are grounded in knowledge, and the believers, BELIEVE in that which has been revealed to you (Muhammad) and in that which has been revealed before you... We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the prophets after him, and We sent inspiration to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David we gave the Psalms."

C12. Repentance (Al-Tauba) 9:111, 9 AH.

"God has bought from the believers their selves and their wealth, and for them is the garden (of Paradise) if they fight in the ways of God: and whether they kill or are killed, the promise of God IS true in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an, and who is more faithful to his promise than God?"

C13. The Table (Al-Ma'ida) 5:51, 10 AH.

"To you (Muhammad) We revealed the book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands from the scripture (the Torah and Gospel), and guarding it (wa muhaiminan `alaihi)..."

We find in these verses a strong testimony to the Torah and the Gospel as being true and present at the time of Muhammad.

In the Sura of Repentance, one of the last revelations given, it says, "The promise of God IS true in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Qur'an" [C12].

NOW THIS MIGHT SURPRISE YOU ALL -- HERE ARE VERSES WHERE MUHAMMAD ACTUALLY QUOTES OR APPEALS TO THE TORAH AND/OR THE GOSPEL.

D1. The Star (Najm) 53:33-38, Early Meccan.

"Do you (Muhammad) see the one who turns back? Gives a little, then hardens (his heart)? What has he knowledge of the unseen so that he can see? Nay, IS he not acquainted with what IS in the books of Moses and of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements? - namely that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another."

D2. The Poets (Al-Shu`ara') 26:192-197, Middle Meccan.

"Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. The Spirit of faith came down upon your heart with it that you might be one of the warners in the plain Arabic tongue. And truly it IS in the Scriptures (Zubur) of the former people. IS it not a sign to them that the learned of the Children of Israel RECOGNIZE it."

D3. Ta-Ha 20:133, Middle Meccan from -7 AH.

"They (the Meccans) say, `Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?' What! Has not a clear sign come to them in what IS in the former pages (al-suhuf al-aulla )?"

According to Baidawi's commentary on this verse - The "former pages" refers to "the Torah and the Gospel and all the divine books."

D4. The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:7, Middle Meccan.

"And before thee (Muhammad), We sent no one, except men, to whom We granted revelation. ASK (plural) the people of the Scripture message, if you don't know."

D5. The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:105, Middle Meccan.

"Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): `My servants, the righteous, shall inherit the earth.'"

This is a direct quotation from Psalm 37:29 which reads, "The righteous shall inherit the earth and dwell therein forever." When considered with the preceding quotation from the same Sura (21:7), it is clear that, according to the Qur'an, God is quoting from the Psalms as still present and true at the time of Muhammad.

D6. Gold Adornments (Al-Zukhruf) 43:44-45, Late Meccan.

"The (Qur'an) is indeed a message for you (Muhammad) and your people, (all of) you shall be brought to account, and ASK those of our apostles whom we sent before thee, `Did We appoint any deities other than the Most Merciful whom they should worship?'"

According to Baidawi, Jelaleddin, and Yusuf Ali, "ask those of our apostles whom we sent before thee" means enquire of their people - those learned in their writings and doctrines. Therefore those writings and doctrines were clearly available in Muhammad's time.

D7. Jonah (Yunus) 10:94, Late Meccan.

"If you (Muhammad) are in doubt regarding that which We have revealed to thee, ASK those who READ the book from before you..."

D8. The Bee (Al-Nahl) 16:43-44, Late Meccan.

"And We have not sent before you (Muhammad) other than men to whom we granted revelation. And (all of you) ASK the people of the (Scripture) Message if you don't know."

D9. The Children of Israel (Bani Isra'il) 17:101, Late Meccan from -1 AH.

"To Moses We gave nine clear signs. ASK (O Muhammad) the Children of Israel..."

Both the Jews and Christians "READ the book" [D15], and "STUDY it earnestly" [D17].

There are some righteous Jews [D14] who GUIDE with truth and JUDGE by it [D13], and among the Jews and Christians is a people on the right course [D24].

Meccans are told, "ASK the People of the Scripture message if you don't know" [D4,D8], and "ASK those of our Apostles whom we sent" - that is ask their people who are learned in their writings and doctrines [D6].

Muhammad is told, "ASK those who READ the Book from before you, if you are in doubt" [D7], and "ASK the Children of Israel" about the nine clear signs given to Moses [D9].

According to other passages God repeats commands from the Torah, warning the Jews to JUDGE by them [D22], and quotes from the Psalms of David [D5]. He appeals to worshiping as the likeness of Muslim believers which is to be found in the Torah, and alludes to growing seed in the Gospel of Jesus as the likeness of believers from the Gospel [D20].

Muhammad tells the Jews to bring the Torah that "it might JUDGE between them" [D16]. On another occasion he tells them, "BRING the Torah and READ it if you are men of truth" [D18].

God asks Muhammad why the Jews come to him for judgement when "they HAVE the Torah in which IS the command of God" [D21]; and the Christians are told to "JUDGE by what God has revealed in it (the Gospel)" [D23].

God speaks of "the Torah and the Gospel that IS WITH THEM" [D12]. And in the last Sura which came to Muhammad - the Sura of the Table (Al-Ma'ida) from 10 AH - both Jews and Christians are told "you are not (founded) on anything until you PERFORM the Torah and the Gospel, and what was revealed to you from your Lord" [D24].

One of the commentators, Ibn Ishaq, relates the following Hadith concerning this passage [D24]. He says:

"Rafi son of Haritha and Salam Ibn Mashkum and two others, came to Muhammad and said to him, `O Muhammad! do you not claim to be a follower of the religion of Abraham and of his faith, and do you not believe in that which we have of the Torah and do you not testify that it is truly from God.'

"He replied, `Yes, in truth, but you have invented new doctrines, and you deny that which is therein regarding which a covenant was taken from you; and you conceal what you have been commanded to show to mankind. Therefore, I separate myself from your new ideas.'

"They said, `And as for us, we hold by that which is in our hands, and we follow the truth and guidance; and we do not believe in you and we will not follow you.'

"Then the great and glorious God revealed, `Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything until you perform the Torah and the Gospel and what was revealed to you from your Lord.'"

If this hadith is true then, by itself, it proves that Muhammad believed in the Torah available to the Jews in Medina in 10 AH. And, even if it is not a strong hadith, it is an important testimony to the fact that Muslims of the first and second century of the Hejira knew about a valid Torah and Gospel with them in Arabia.

With or without the above hadith, the 24 passages which we have looked at in this section and the 13 from the previous section, make a total of 37 quotations which testify to a true Torah and Gospel being available to the people of Mecca and Medina while Muhammad was alive.

Muslims may claim that the true Torah and true Gospel, which were present in Arabia, are different from those presently available. But where are they?!? Surely some Muslim would have preserved such important books in one of the many Muslim libraries found throughout the Islamic world, even if only to help the Jews and Christians obey the Quranic instruction to "perform the Torah and the Gospel". Moreover, we would then be able to compare them with the copies which have been preserved by the Jews and Christians.

In fact, this is not the case. No such ancient copies have been preserved by the Muslims. Over the whole world there is only one Torah, which IS WITH both Jews and Christians, and one book called the Gospel. which IS WITH the Christians.

Many of the great Muslim thinkers have, indeed, accepted the authenticity of the New Testament text. Listing the names of these men seems a fitting conclusion to this essay. Their testimony proves that Christian-Muslim dialogue need not for ever be stymied by the allegation introduced by Ibn-Khazem. Two great historians, Al-Mas'udi (died 956) and Ibn-Khaldun (died 1406), held the authenticity of the Gospel text. Four well-known theologians agreed with this: Ali at-Tabari (died 855), Qasim al-Khasani (died 860), 'Amr al-Ghakhiz (died 869) and, last but not least, the famous Al-Ghazzali (died 1111).14 Their view is shared by Abu Ali Husain Ibn Sina, who is known in the West as Avicenna (died 1037). Bukhari (died 870), who acquired a great name by his collection of early traditions, quoted the Qur'an itself (Sura 3:72,78) to prove that the text of the Bible was not falsified.15 Finally, Muhammad Abduh Sayyid Ahmad Khan, a religious and social reformer of modem times (died 1905), accepted the findings of modern science. He said:

As far as the text of the Bible is concerned. it has not been altered ... No attempt was made to present a diverging text as the authentic one.16

14. I. DI MATTEO, loc. cit (note 5), AT-TABARI and AL-GHAKHIZ claimed the translations were unfaithful at times; they did not doubt the authenticity of the Greek original. With regard at AL-GHAZZALI, see F. M. PAREJA, op. cit, p. 463.

15. G. PARRINDER, Jesus in the Qur'an, Faber and Faber, London 1965; Dutch translation, Ten Have, Baarn 1978, p. 124.

16. M. H. ANANIKIAN, `The Reforms and Religious Ideas of Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan'. The Moslem World 14 (1934) p. 61.

BOTTOM LINE, modern day Muslims don't have to believe me but at least follow the teachings of YOUR Quran!

 

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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 7:41am
Originally posted by Caringheart

""Stereotypes are essentially assumptions that are made about a person or group's character or attributes, based on a general image of what a particular group of people is like." [1]  "
Right, precisely, glad you took the time to read at the source I provided.
You make my point.  My scriptures do not create assumptions about a group's character or attributes.  My scripture teaches to treat people as individuals.  I come to the forum seeking to get to know individuals because I make no assumptions about groups of people.

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." (60:8)
Yes, if people live by this verse I have no problem with the quran.  The problem is that there are many verses that conflict with this one, and we must consider which comes first, which are abrogated.  This is the problem with the quran.
As I have been saying, it comes down to interpretation doesn't it, and what people choose to follow?

Salaam,
CH


Caringheart,

I am not a Muslim and I have to admit am too busy to get involved in this thread in great detail, but which verses conflict with 60:8?

The fighting verses in the Quran deal with fighting people who have first attacked Muslims, not those who haven't attacked them first. I have heard the claim that 60:8 is 'abrogated' by Christians in the past, but I've never seen anywhere in the Quran or hadith for that matter, where it is stated.

If you are going to make the claim that 60:8 was abrogated, you must show where Islam teaches this and what it is abrogated by.

Otherwise, it is a false accusation. Not trying to rude or anything and I believe you are well-meaning, but if you are going to make claims you need to be able to back them up with evidence. It makes your arguments more credible. Also, as Christians we are commanded to be truthful.

In Christ,

TG12345
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 2:09pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

""Stereotypes are essentially assumptions that are made about a person or group's character or attributes, based on a general image of what a particular group of people is like." [1]  "
Right, precisely, glad you took the time to read at the source I provided.
You make my point.  My scriptures do not create assumptions about a group's character or attributes.  My scripture teaches to treat people as individuals.  I come to the forum seeking to get to know individuals because I make no assumptions about groups of people.

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." (60:8)
Yes, if people live by this verse I have no problem with the quran.  The problem is that there are many verses that conflict with this one, and we must consider which comes first, which are abrogated.  This is the problem with the quran.
As I have been saying, it comes down to interpretation doesn't it, and what people choose to follow?

Salaam,
CH


You truly do have a short memory.  I already proved that the Bible says that all non-Christians are doomed to Hell.  I also proved that your Bible refers to non-Jews as "dogs".  Who are you to point your hypocritical finger at Islam?  Why don't you point the finger at yourself, for stereotyping against Muslims?  Hmmm?  A little introspection may show you the light! 

Your views on abrogation as just as confused as you are.  So, Sheik Caringheart, please tell us what verses are abrogated, since you have obviously done the...(cough)..."research"?  LOL

It is well-known that Surah al-Mumtahana (Surah 8) was revealed in Medina [1].  So, the insinuation that it was "abrogated" can already be shown to be inaccurate, and reflects your own ignorance of the Quran as well as of abrogation.  It also shows the kind of crowd you hang out with and the "sources" you use to "learn" about Islam.  It's no wonder then that you don't provide citations.

Read Dr. al-Imam's book if you are truly interested in the topic of abrogation.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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