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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2012 at 1:24am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi,

I see that you have progressed from the Injil, (which was the Message of the Gospel, and never in book form until it was recorded in the Gospels), --- to discussing the NT, and the Quran.

It is interesting how you say, "These are the facts" when you refer to the Quran, but you disagree with the revelations that Gavriel gave to, and through, Muhammad.

The 27 books of the NT were confirmed in 367 AD, and accepted by all the Churches in 393. Shortly there after, the scholar Jerome, finished translating the Latin Vulgate about 400.

Muhammad was called about 600 AD and the angel Gabriel, who spoke to both Zechariah and Mary in the Gospel of Luke, are recorded the same way in Surah 19 (which was revealed first), and repeated in Surah 3.

--- So, it is totally true and accurate in the Quran, but not true in the Gospel

However, it was Gabriel who said this in Surah 3:
3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

So if Gabriel 'confirmed' in 615 AD that the former Scriptures were true, --- then the simple deduction is that you don't believe the revelations of Gabriel, therefore, you don't really believe the Quran, where it 'verifies' the former Scriptures.

I believe the revelations that Gabriel gave to Muhammad, and were recorded by human hands, --- even if you do not.

Jesus said more than once, that all that God revealed to Him, He gave to the disciples. So all of the Message of the Injil was repeated by Jesus, and recorded bu human hands.

The easy way to read the whole Gospel/Injil, is to get a 'Red Letter Edition' where all the words of Jesus are in RED. --- Just read the red parts, and don't miss what is in the Book of Revelation.

--- Remeber again, that this was 'confirmed' as true bu Gabriel about 615 AD, when Surah 3 was revealed.
--- (And there have been no changes since then either.)


Placid

 
Salaam Placid,
 
You seem to be confused. The Gospels which you have today is not the INJIL. Noboby knows where the Injil is.
 
This is my guess.
 
Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) taught the disciples what he was commissioned to do and many if not all of his disciples wrote down the message he was conveying into scrolls. In early Christianity these were in circulation and were used by the Christian churches as guidance. Then when the Roman Empire got tired of feeding the Christians to the lions in the Colosseum they decided to embace Christianity and then Emperor Constantine commisioned the Council of Nicea to canonise the gospels. To appease the pagan Romans they then decided to merge the pagan religion of Rome and Christianity. What you have today was chosen and all the rest were either destroyed or hidden somewhere in antiquity.
 
So what you call the New Testament is not the INJIL that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) left with his disciples.
 
A very important point to note is that the Holy Qur'an only confirms that the Injil was given to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam), it does not however confrim the New Testament as the INJIL.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 4:42pm
Hi Abu,

(Concerning the Injil)
Quote: Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) taught the disciples what he was commissioned to do and many if not all of his disciples wrote down the message he was conveying into scrolls. In early Christianity these were in circulation and were used by the Christian churches as guidance.

Response: --- That is correct, --- and the Scriptures were never changed, or Gabriel would not have ‘confirmed’ them in 600 AD, --- would he have?
--- While Constantine no doubt wrote his own commentary as he was as much a philosopher as a spiritual leader. --- He may have had influence over many and may have led them astray, but he couldn’t, and didn’t, change any Scriptures. (He would have had to gather the hundreds of thousands of copies, to make any changes. Constantine had no authority over the thousands of individual Churches, did he? He only had influence within the Roman Catholic Church, did he not?

It says this concerning Jesus in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

As I said, there never was a book called ‘the injil,’ or ‘the Gospel,’ --- but God would teach Him through His intellect, --- and Jesus said He conveyed to the disciples, 'all that God had given Him.' --- Was it not the same way that Gabriel used, to convey knowledge to Muhammad, --- through his intellect?
--- The Gospel, or Injil, meaning ‘Good News’ was the Message, not a book, so, after the eye witnesses wrote it down, --- (with Matthew being the main writer, and writing first in Aramaic), --- the first four books are entitled, “The Gospel according to ---.”   
This is why I said, “If you want to read the Injil, --- read the words in Red, in the Red Letter Edition.” --- That is why it was prepared that way, so that you can see what Jesus said, separated from what others said.


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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 4:41am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

(Concerning the Injil)
Quote: Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) taught the disciples what he was commissioned to do and many if not all of his disciples wrote down the message he was conveying into scrolls. In early Christianity these were in circulation and were used by the Christian churches as guidance.

Response: --- That is correct, --- and the Scriptures were never changed, or Gabriel would not have ‘confirmed’ them in 600 AD, --- would he have?
--- While Constantine no doubt wrote his own commentary as he was as much a philosopher as a spiritual leader. --- He may have had influence over many and may have led them astray, but he couldn’t, and didn’t, change any Scriptures. (He would have had to gather the hundreds of thousands of copies, to make any changes. Constantine had no authority over the thousands of individual Churches, did he? He only had influence within the Roman Catholic Church, did he not?
Angel Gabriel (Alahi Salaam) did confirm that the Injil is corrupted. "Allah has taken a son" is plastered all over the NT so that cannot be the Injil.



As I said, there never was a book called ‘the injil,’ or ‘the Gospel,’ --- but God would teach Him through His intellect, --- and Jesus said He conveyed to the disciples, 'all that God had given Him.' --- Was it not the same way that Gabriel used, to convey knowledge to Muhammad, --- through his intellect?
--- The Gospel, or Injil, meaning ‘Good News’ was the Message, not a book, so, after the eye witnesses wrote it down, --- (with Matthew being the main writer, and writing first in Aramaic), --- the first four books are entitled, “The Gospel according to ---.”   
This is why I said, “If you want to read the Injil, --- read the words in Red, in the Red Letter Edition.” --- That is why it was prepared that way, so that you can see what Jesus said, separated from what others said.


Placid

 
Where is the evidence that Matthew wrote his Gospel originally in Aramaic?
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 1:06pm
Hi Abu,

Quote: Angel Gabriel (Alahi Salaam) did confirm that the Injil is corrupted. "Allah has taken a son" is plastered all over the NT so that cannot be the Injil.

Response: --- Where did the angel Gabriel confirm that the njil is corrupted, after confirming that it was the truth?
Surah 3:3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, ‘confirming’ what went before it; and He (God) sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

And again in Surah 5:48 To thee We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, ‘confirming’ the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:

The same angel Gabriel said in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- You have never quite understood that it was the angel Gabriel who said that Jesus would be CALLED the Son of God

Look at this also where the angel Gabriel said in Surah 19:
19 He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- While it was ‘out of the ordinary’ for God to bring into being one who was CALLED His Son, --- but God only had to say ”Be!” --- and it was


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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 1:41pm
Second question,

Quote: Where is the evidence that Matthew wrote his Gospel originally in Aramaic

Response: --- There are various Church Fathers that have mentioned this, and while there are no copies or fragments of the Aramaic remaining, it is recorded that Matthew who, I believe was the designated ‘scribe’ or writer, first wrote, “The Sayings of Jesus,” which I believe would have been the “Sermon on the Mount,” --- Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
--- And then he wrote a Gospel in Aramaic, before the Gospel in Greek from Antioch in Syria.

Quote: Around 180 Irenaeus of Lyons wrote that
“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon his breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia. --- End of quote.

Quote: Fifty years earlier Papias, bishop of Hieropolis in Asia Minor, wrote, "Matthew compiled the sayings [of the Lord] in the Aramaic la nguage, and everyone translated them as well as he could" --- End of quote.

Quote: Eusebius himself declared that "Matthew had begun by preaching to the Hebrews, and when he made up his mind to go to others too, he committed his own Gospel to writing in his native tongue [Aramaic], so that for those with whom he was no longer present the gap left by his departure was filled by what he wrote" --- End of quote.


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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2012 at 4:39am
Originally posted by Placid


Response: --- Where did the angel Gabriel confirm that the njil is corrupted, after confirming that it was the truth?
Surah 3:3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, ‘confirming’ what went before it; and He (God) sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

And again in Surah 5:48 To thee We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, ‘confirming’ the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:
These verses only confirm that the Torah and the Injil were given to Prophets Musa (Alayhi Salaam) and Isa (Alayhi Salaam). There are other verses which point to these being corrupted by the hands of men.


The same angel Gabriel said in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- You have never quite understood that it was the angel Gabriel who said that Jesus would be CALLED the Son of God
Nearly all of the Prophets were called son of God, this label was not exclusive to Isa (Alayhi Salaam).


Look at this also where the angel Gabriel said in Surah 19:
19 He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- While it was ‘out of the ordinary’ for God to bring into being one who was CALLED His Son, --- but God only had to say ”Be!” --- and it was


Placid

 
Like Adam (Alayhi Salaam) Prophet Isa (Alayhi Salaam) was the only other human being 'made' without a human father. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala 'made' them both with a single command "Be'.
 
Son of God should not be taken literally.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2012 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

Quote: Angel Gabriel (Alahi Salaam) did confirm that the Injil is corrupted. "Allah has taken a son" is plastered all over the NT so that cannot be the Injil.

Response: --- Where did the angel Gabriel confirm that the njil is corrupted, after confirming that it was the truth?
Surah 3:3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, ‘confirming’ what went before it; and He (God) sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

And again in Surah 5:48 To thee We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, ‘confirming’ the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:

The same angel Gabriel said in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- You have never quite understood that it was the angel Gabriel who said that Jesus would be CALLED the Son of God

Look at this also where the angel Gabriel said in Surah 19:
19 He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- While it was ‘out of the ordinary’ for God to bring into being one who was CALLED His Son, --- but God only had to say ”Be!” --- and it was


Placid



Placid,
I hope these verses help you understand and answer your questions. As a mater of fact anyone, like myself, who has studied the Bible knows that it is altered that it is not consistent with itself, and that disqualifies it as a pure word of God.

Al Maidah (5):12 God did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel......(13) their hearts grew hard. They changed the words from their places and forgot a good part of the messsage that was sent them...........
14 From those who call themselves Christians we did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them.........soon will God show them what it is they have done.
15. O people of the Book (Jews and Christians) there hath come to you our Messanger, revealing to you that you used to hide in the book, and passing over much (that is now unneccessary."
There hath come to you from God a new light and a perspicuous Book.
16 Wherewith God guides all who seek His good pleasure, to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness by His will, Unto the light-guideth them to a path that is straight.

Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2012 at 5:59am
Hi Abu,

Quote: (I asked) --- Where did the angel Gabriel confirm that the Injil is corrupted, after confirming that it was the truth?
Surah 3:3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, ‘confirming’ what went before it; and He (God) sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
--- And again in Surah 5:48 To thee We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, ‘confirming’ the scripture that came before it, and “guarding it in safety.”

You said: ---These verses only confirm that the Torah and the Injil were given to Prophets Musa (Alayhi Salaam) and Isa (Alayhi Salaam). There are other verses which point to these being corrupted by the hands of men.

Question: --- What are the references to these extra verses?

You said: --- Nearly all of the Prophets were called sons of God, this label was not exclusive to Isa (Alayhi Salaam).

Response: --- I have not found that, so which Prophets are you referring to?
However, Gabriel revealed to Mary that ‘Jesus would be CALLED the Son of God.’ Luke 1:35.


--- I had said once before that I would reveal something to you about Jesus being a ‘Servant of God’ that has never been mentioned, so you may be the first to understand it. --- I will give the verses referring to Jesus, and not take time to explain unless you want to ask about them.--- I will start in the OT with Isaiah 42:
1 “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
--- This is the chapter on the Messiah who came to Redeemed others, Isaiah 53:
11 By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

--- In the Gospel of Luke, the angel Gabriel said to Mary in Luke 1:
31 “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall CALL His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;
35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

Now notice this: --- Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, and the Son of Man, while He was on earth for 33 years, but after His ascension in Acts 1, the Spiritual body returned, to sit 'on the right hand of God,' Surah 3:55.

--- And here, Peter, under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit again refers to Jesus as the 'Servant of God,' in Acts 3:
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

--- Now, also two verses from the Quran, where Jesus said in Surah 3:
50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
--- (If you weren’t so afraid of these verses you would realize that Jesus is saying, “God is My Lord and I am a Servant to Him.”) --- Then you would use this to convince Christians from the Quran that Jesus did not say He was God, but that He was the ‘Servant of God.’)
--- Then there is this verse in Surah 4:
172 The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave (Servant) unto Allah, nor will the favored angels.

--- (So that should help you understand what the Scriptures say, should it not?)



Placid

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