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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Topic: Where is the Injil?
    Posted: 03 November 2012 at 8:05am
As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
Where is the Injil? It does not exist. The Gospels or the New Testament which the Christians use as their scripture is not the Injil that is mentioned by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala in the holy Qur'an. What the Christians claim to be the Gospels are the work of unknown writers, and even these writings are copies of copies of copies of copies... The original manuscripts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are lost and to make matters worse noboby even knows who Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were. These Gospels begin with the words "The Gospel According To....". Surely, all Gospels should begin with the words "The Gospel According To Jesus Christ....".
It is safe to assume that the Injil is lost in time. It is also safe to assume that Jesus (pbuh) appointed scribes who were possibly some of the disciples to write down what he was saying.
In 1945 a local Egyptian farmer found the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' in the caves of Qumran which contained other Gospels all thrown into an earthen vessel and kept away from people in the cave. These Gospels also tell the story of Jesus (pbuh). However, they do not in any way portray Jesus (pbuh) as a son of god or god incarnated. Again one can assume these were discarded because these Gospels were dtrimental to the Trinity concept.
Christians today and throughout history have been blindly following a book which they do not know from where it came. Modern scholars all agree that the earliest copy of the Gospels date from the year 90AD. This is clearly sixty years after the alleged death and resurrection of Jesus (pubh).
Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has clearly stated in the Holy Qur'an that a scripture known as the Injil was given to Jesus (pbuh). So where is the Injil?


Edited by Abu Loren - 03 November 2012 at 8:08am
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2012 at 1:50am

There are thousands of copies and fragments of the New Testament that we have today most of which pre date Mohammad. So obviously this would have been the same Injil Mohamad had access to in 600 AD.

The New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

 

Who are you to say the Gospels should begin with the words "The Gospel According To Jesus Christ....". As far as I’m concerned they have more credibility because they are not trying to announce any thing or prove any thing except the recording of history. And you can assume all you like but the facts speak for themselves. History and the Quaran both confirm the New Testament we have today as the Injil Mohammad had.

 

Take a look at your Quran. What was Uthman afraid of when he burnt the first copies of the Quran?

Because of the variations in the way the Qur'an was being memorized and recited after Muhammad's death this caused problems. Uthman and a team of others did a certain amount of editing to produce a standard text of the Qur'an.

Then Uthman ordered that all other Qur'ans be burnt and his version be made the only standard version for the Muslim world. Oral and written tradition now had to conform to Uthman's standard version.

The Bible has never had a wholesale burning to standardize its text in the way that the Qur'an was by Uthman.

So much for the Quran being the infallible divine word of God.

 
In regards to the Dead Sea scrolls you need to do your research better. You are confusing the Old Testament Dead Sea scrolls found in 1946 in Israel with the Gnostic books found in Nag Hamadi Egypt in 1945.

The Dead Sea scrolls were all Jewish (not New Testament) manuscripts that actually confirm the Old Testament Torah we have in the Bible today. There were no New Testament writings among them. They were not your lost Injil.

 

The Nag Hamadi books you are getting confused with were Gnostic “christian” writings with strong pagan influences particularly from Egypt, but also Persia, Rome, and Greece.

They were written much later than the eye witness accounts of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and in different languages .eg. Egyptian Coptic

Christianity has the Jewish religion as its foundation and these Pagan and Gnostic texts do not line up with Jewish traditions. And as they were written later and not in the earlier languages they lack authority.

 
The gospels have more credibility than your Sunna. The earliest copies of the Gospels date from the same generation of followers who knew Jesus.

Unlike your Sunna which had been passed down mostly orally for more than a hundred years after Muhammad's death in AD 632. Unlike Christian history – those early Muslim believers would be gone.

Add this to the fact that Mohamad and the Quaran were written 600 years later than the eye witness accounts of the gospels of Jesus, plus now we add extra hundred years. 
Added to the fact that Caliph Uthman ibn Affan as the first to urge Muslims to write the Qur'an in a fixed form, and to record the hadith with no sources surviving directly from this period and that we are dependent on what later writers tell us about this period, doesn’t do much to add historical credibility or reliability for Islams writings. 
And then Uthman's labors were cut short by his assassination. and then of course there are the Shia and Sunni differences in terms of what is acceptable with the hadith. Not a good look for Islam.  
The hadith comes in last regarding credibility of truth and historical reliability. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2012 at 1:52am

Ancient Quaran Discovered in Sunaa Yemen 1972.

 

Before you start criticizing the New Testament for it validity and reliability, check this out.

In 1972 a large number of ancient Quranic manuscripts, dating from first century of Hijra were discovered in the Great Mosque of Sana’a (Yemen), which significantly differs from the present standard one. Carbon dating system confirmed that these Qurans are not forged. Moreover, these Qurans were discovered by Muslims, not infidels.

 

Carbon-dating puts the origin of some of the parchments to 645–690 CE, while calligraphic dating has pointed to their origin in 710–715 AD. Some of the parchment pages seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries, i.e. Islam’s first two centuries, perhaps the oldest Quran in existence.

 

It shattered the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”. It means the Quran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected, and textual alterations had taken place over the years purely by Human hands.

The sacred aura surrounding this Holy Scripture of Islam, which remained intact for some 14 centuries is gone with this astonishing discovery and the ‘core belief’ of 1.4b Muslims that the Quran is the eternal, unaltered word of God is now clearly visible as a great hoax, a downright falsehood.

Not only this, the Quranic claim that nobody can alter the words of God is also a fake.

 

As if it is not enough, many manuscripts showed the sign of palimpsests, i.e., versions very clearly written over even earlier washed off versions. The underwriting of palimpsest is, of course, often difficult to read visually, but modern tools, such as ultraviolet photography, can highlight them. It suggests that the Sana’a manuscripts are not only variants to the present version of the Quran, but the Sana’a manuscripts themselves were variants of earlier version, re-written on the same paper. It means, Allah’s claim that original text is preserved in heaven on golden tablets (Q 56: 77–78; 85:21–22), which none can touch except angels is also a fairy-tale.

 

 

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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 15 November 2012 at 6:20am
Furthermore, the Gnostics actually believed this about Jesus:  They believed that God was this thing called the Pleroma, the Completeness.  Think of the Pleroma as a big living lump of cosmic plasticine.  Out of this pleroma popped emanations called Aeons.  These Aeons praised the Pleroma and came from the Pleroma and had a mystical relationship with it, having a divine spark in these Aeons.  These Aeons were gods, the Pleroma the Supreme God.  Think of them as little cosmic jelly babies.  However, the little black jelly baby, the janitor god, rebelled, and either did so by having sex with a female Aeon and so sinning, and creating an abortion which became the world (as Gnostics believed that spirit was good and matter evil), or by going to the toilet and doing a number 2, which became the world.  (Weird, I know!)  This little janitor god fell and became the God of the Old Testament and the Devil/ YHWH/Satan then tempted many of the Aeons into falling into sin too, and so they ended up wrapped up in physical bodies on Earth.  This evil janitor god then called the Jews to serve him in his evil, while he hypocritically judged the world harshly for its sin.  So, the Pleroma sent his uncorrupted number one Aeon, who only appeared to be human, as Jesus.  Jesus did not die on the Cross precisely because he was not real.  He told the people salvation lay within themselves, as they were gods.  They were given a special password to get past the Aeons in the sky to get back to the Pleroma.

This is the irony.  In Gnosticism Jesus is a god and not a man.  In Christianity Jesus is God and Man.  In Islam Jesus is a man and not God.  Both Gnosticism and Islam deny Jesus died on the Cross, for completely opposite reasons.  Everyone else knows that Jesus died on the Cross. 

The Gnostic writings were found by an Egyptian farmer in 1945 in Nag Hammadi.  The Dead Sea Scrolls were found in 1947 with further discoveries up to 1952 originally by a Palestinian Arab shepherd boy, and they contain many manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible and some Greek Septuagint Old Testament translation fragments, as well as the Qumran Community's own sectarian Jewish writings, commentaries and rule books. 

You would do well to pay close attention to what Experiential says.

I also issue out a challenge.  Since Muslims use John 14-16 to justify their belief that Jesus predicted Muhammad, they are therefore agreeing with us that these chapters are authentic.  Since this is so, I wish to turn your attention to John 14:26: "But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." 

Now if this is Muhammad, note that the Counsellor/Advocate/Comforter/Parakletos has the job of preserving the Injeel.  Therefore the Muslims should have the entire Injeel memorised.  Therefore I ask of you if there is a copy of the Injeel as recited by Muhammad in the Sacred Mosque in Mecca?  And if not, why not?

The authors are not anonymous.  I dealt with the issue of Mark, for example, in another thread in here.  I'll be more than happy to discuss with you the issue of the three other authors in later posts.  The Injeel IS in the Four Gospels, The Gospel is the Good News of Jesus, as proclaimed by Himself and by the four Gospel authors.  It is the same Injeel, being given by the Father to Jesus, and also is the Injeel, Good News, about Jesus.  The two are inseparable.  So when it says the Gospel according to so and so, it is still the Gospel according to Jesus.

    
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 16 November 2012 at 2:12am
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin


You would do well to pay close attention to what Experiential says.
We don't take him seriously because he is a fraud. He gets all of his information from anti-Islamic sites and post them here. To make matters worse we constantly discredit his claims by giving him valid proof but he keeps coming back.

If you read his rhetoric closely you will see that he says things like ' the Sanaa Qur'an was carbon dated to be more than 100 years after Hijra' this is utter nonsense because Uthman compiled the authentic Qur'an way before this. So obviously it was a copy that somebody tried to do then discarded.

I also issue out a challenge.  Since Muslims use John 14-16 to justify their belief that Jesus predicted Muhammad, they are therefore agreeing with us that these chapters are authentic.  Since this is so, I wish to turn your attention to John 14:26: "But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." 

 
I submit that there are genuine words of Jesus' (pbuh) in the New Testament. However, the majority of the NT is 'doctored' and added later by Trinitarians.


Now if this is Muhammad, note that the Counsellor/Advocate/Comforter/Parakletos has the job of preserving the Injeel.  Therefore the Muslims should have the entire Injeel memorised.  Therefore I ask of you if there is a copy of the Injeel as recited by Muhammad in the Sacred Mosque in Mecca?  And if not, why not?

 
No because he cannot preserve something that is tainted.



The authors are not anonymous.  I dealt with the issue of Mark, for example, in another thread in here.  I'll be more than happy to discuss with you the issue of the three other authors in later posts.  The Injeel IS in the Four Gospels, The Gospel is the Good News of Jesus, as proclaimed by Himself and by the four Gospel authors.  It is the same Injeel, being given by the Father to Jesus, and also is the Injeel, Good News, about Jesus.  The two are inseparable.  So when it says the Gospel according to so and so, it is still the Gospel according to Jesus.

    

Not interested in going over these over and over again, it's pointless. We will just go around in circles.
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 19 November 2012 at 5:58pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The Gospels or the New Testament which the Christians use as their scripture is not the Injil that is mentioned by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala in the holy Qur'an.

But it is The Gospel mentioned by Jehovah (YHWH)Jesus God, by Jesus himself and his 12 Apostles which is all that really matters. The Quran is a book for Muslims. The Holy Scriptures is a book for MANKIND.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

What the Christians claim to be the Gospels are the work of unknown writers,...
 

Why is it that nobody disputed the Gospel as works of unknown writers, not even the enemies of Christians and the Quran until recently, what took so long guys, why now if such is true?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The original manuscripts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are lost
 

How would you know unless Muslims show the world a different original Gospel from the Dead Sea Scroll we already have and that Muhammad himself and other ancient Muslims had in there possession for guidance? Do you have that in some museum like we have the Gospel in a museum?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

and to make matters worse noboby even knows who Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were.
 

They must be important; even you mentioned them by name although they are very well known even by non-Christians.  

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Surely, all Gospels should begin with the words "The Gospel According To Jesus Christ...."
 

That is where the Quran seriously falls short again and again, The Gospel was never sent to Jesus. But, how would Muhammad know, he could not read, he was illiterate.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

It is safe to assume that the Injil is lost in time. It is also safe to assume that Jesus (pbuh) appointed scribes who were possibly some of the disciples to write down what he was saying.
 

You know what happens when you ass-ume?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

In 1945 . . .
 

That must have been Jonny come lately, 1945? That’s the best you have?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Modern scholars all agree
 

Again, modern scholars come lately. Why now? Why not then? You mean to tell me you can’t even find any documents during that time? Not even from critics? Of course not! Because The Gospel was the undisputed champion of the world! Even ancient Muslims at least knew that much that is why you cannot find even any ancient Muslims disputing it. I would be very careful if I were you in what you say against God’s word.  

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has clearly stated in the Holy Qur'an that a scripture known as the Injil was given to Jesus (pbuh). So where is the Injil?
 

And there lies the problem as we have been saying since day one. The last of all the sacred writings want to change the original history of mankind. Is that is why Muhammad had to be violently strangled five times before he gave in and began to ‘recite’ and then forcibly say what was told him?

But remember this if anything; Muhammad and his Quran which came many, many, many centuries later are the only ones who talk against Jesus as the son of God, the OT and NT, the 12 Apostles and the Apostle Paul.

You do the math!



Edited by Kish - 19 November 2012 at 6:01pm
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 19 November 2012 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by Kish

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The Gospels or the New Testament which the Christians use as their scripture is not the Injil that is mentioned by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala in the holy Qur'an.

But it is The Gospel mentioned by Jehovah (YHWH)Jesus God, by Jesus himself and his 12 Apostles which is all that really matters. The Quran is a book for Muslims. The Holy Scriptures is a book for MANKIND.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

What the Christians claim to be the Gospels are the work of unknown writers,...
 

Why is it that nobody disputed the Gospel as works of unknown writers, not even the enemies of Christians and the Quran until recently, what took so long guys, why now if such is true?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The original manuscripts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are lost
 

How would you know unless Muslims show the world a different original Gospel from the Dead Sea Scroll we already have and that Muhammad himself and other ancient Muslims had in there possession for guidance? Do you have that in some museum like we have the Gospel in a museum?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

and to make matters worse noboby even knows who Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were.
 

They must be important; even you mentioned them by name although they are very well known even by non-Christians.  

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Surely, all Gospels should begin with the words "The Gospel According To Jesus Christ...."
 

That is where the Quran seriously falls short again and again, The Gospel was never sent to Jesus. But, how would Muhammad know, he could not read, he was illiterate.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

It is safe to assume that the Injil is lost in time. It is also safe to assume that Jesus (pbuh) appointed scribes who were possibly some of the disciples to write down what he was saying.
 

You know what happens when you ass-ume?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

In 1945 . . .
 

That must have been Jonny come lately, 1945? That’s the best you have?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Modern scholars all agree
 

Again, modern scholars come lately. Why now? Why not then? You mean to tell me you can’t even find any documents during that time? Not even from critics? Of course not! Because The Gospel was the undisputed champion of the world! Even ancient Muslims at least knew that much that is why you cannot find even any ancient Muslims disputing it. I would be very careful if I were you in what you say against God’s word.  

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has clearly stated in the Holy Qur'an that a scripture known as the Injil was given to Jesus (pbuh). So where is the Injil?
 

And there lies the problem as we have been saying since day one. The last of all the sacred writings want to change the original history of mankind. Is that is why Muhammad had to be violently strangled five times before he gave in and began to ‘recite’ and then forcibly say what was told him?

But remember this if anything; Muhammad and his Quran which came many, many, many centuries later are the only ones who talk against Jesus as the son of God, the OT and NT, the 12 Apostles and the Apostle Paul.

You do the math!

 
I'm not going to debate with you because you have absolutely no understanding even of the Bible that you are defending.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2012 at 5:02am
Hi Abu and others,

Quote: --- Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has clearly stated in the Holy Qur'an that a scripture known as the Injil was given to Jesus (pbuh). So where is the Injil?

Response: --- The verses about the Injil are in Surah 3:
47 She (Mary) said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel (Injil),
49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50 '(I have come to you), to attest (confirm) the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

--- (In the ten English translations that I refer to, seven use the word Gospel, --- one uses Injeel, --- one uses Injeel (Gospel), --- and one uses Evangel. --- All three words mean ‘Good News.’ --- But the Good News is the Message that was given to Jesus in v48. --- And it was given through His intellect and was never in book form.

Shakir: 48 And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel.
--- Since Jesus was given ‘knowledge and understanding’ through His intellect, there never was a book called the Injil.

Let’s make a comparison to Muhammad in Surah 42:
52 And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

--- This indicates that Muhammad was ‘inspired’ by the Holy Spirit of God and given the ‘understanding’ of the former Scriptures, and the ‘Faith’ to believe them, (and it was like turning on a light, or ‘enlightening’ the mind). --- And he dedicated himself to God’s service, with that inner understanding?

--- Because Muhammad couldn’t read, this ‘understanding of the Scriptures,’ was given through his intellect, was it not?
And the revelations that were given from Gabriel, --- were they not also given through his intellect? --- And they were later written by human hands?

The Message of the Injeel, or Gospel is in the next verses.
49 Jesus would be an Apostle or Messenger to the Jews first, His Message would be healing the sick, raising the dead, --- He would be the Sign of the Prophet and Redeemer that would come to the Jews.
50 He would confirm the Law of Moses and fulfill it. --- And He said, “I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey Me.”
51 --- And He would confirm His relationship to God in saying:
“It is God Who is My Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.”


Placid

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